Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

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binocular
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:01 pm

Zom wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:48 pm
sure this isnt an early buddhist forum it's a theravada forum but even for being a theravada forum it is sloppy
This is because theravada itself is sloppy 8-)
? How so??

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:47 pm

Greetings,

I assume by "sloppy", something akin to "sprawling" is meant, and I think sprawling is an apt description of the literature and culture of Buddhism, Theravada Buddhism, and (unsurprisingly) how it is discussed.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:38 am

theravāda in one sense is sloppy because the commentaries are conflated with the suttas. and some of them are clearly not reliable
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Zom
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Zom » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:56 am

I assume by "sloppy", something akin to "sprawling" is meant, and I think sprawling is an apt description of the literature and culture of Buddhism, Theravada Buddhism, and (unsurprisingly) how it is discussed.

Image

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by robertk » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:17 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:38 am
theravāda in one sense is sloppy because the commentaries are conflated with the suttas. and some of them are clearly not reliable
And which ones are these?

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:41 am

most of what is said by ven buddhaghosa
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by robertk » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:52 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:41 am
most of what is said by ven buddhaghosa
And how is what most of what Buddhaghosa said "clearly unreliable"?

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:56 am

www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-berlin.d ... dhanew.pdf There are even cases where Buddhaghosa interprets the Tipitaka to mean the exact opposite of what it actually says; see for example, Concept and Reality, 1971
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 5:57 am

more
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"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:48 am

Zom wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:56 am
I assume by "sloppy", something akin to "sprawling" is meant, and I think sprawling is an apt description of the literature and culture of Buddhism, Theravada Buddhism, and (unsurprisingly) how it is discussed.
Image
According to that criteria, which schools of Buddhism are not sloppy?

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robertk
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by robertk » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:51 am

A contemporary monk in Sri Lanka thinks that he knows more than the ancients. His ideas carry no weight with me I am afraid.

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Zom » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:02 am

According to that criteria, which schools of Buddhism are not sloppy?
None, unfortunately .)

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:45 am

Zom wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:02 am
According to that criteria, which schools of Buddhism are not sloppy?
None, unfortunately .)
What is the opposite of sloppy (presuming you would want the opposite of sloppy), and what religions are examples of that?

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:49 am

robertk: this is why i say commentaries held as authoritative even when wrong. it's clearly contrary to the suttas to define nāma as the four immaterial aggregates. consciousness has no place in that definition, so do you believe a 5th century monk knows better than the buddha? rather than lazy ad hominem, why not put forth a valid argument, being a forum moderator? :computerproblem:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by robertk » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:13 pm

It is a pity that monk didn't consult the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka.

He would have learned that in only certain contexts nama excludes vinnana.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm
nāma: (lit. 'name'): 'mind', mentality. This term is generally used as a collective name for the 4 mental groups (arūpino khandha), viz. feeling (vedanā), perception (saññā), mental formations (saṅkhāra) and consciousness (viññāṇa). Within the 4th link (nāma-rūpa) in the formula of the paṭiccasamuppāda (q.v.), however, it applies only to kamma-resultant (vipāka) feeling and perception and a few kamma-resultant mental functions inseparable from any consciousness. As it is said (M. 9; D. 15; S. XII, 2): "Feeling (vedanā), perception (saññā), volition (cetanā), impression (phassa), mental advertence (manasikāra): this, o brother, is called mind (nāma)
this is of course understood by the ancients and well explained.

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Zom
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Zom » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:19 pm

What is the opposite of sloppy (presuming you would want the opposite of sloppy), and what religions are examples of that?
Buddhism 2500 years ago is a nice example 8-)

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:32 pm

Zom wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:19 pm
What is the opposite of sloppy (presuming you would want the opposite of sloppy), and what religions are examples of that?
Buddhism 2500 years ago is a nice example 8-)
And you were there back then to now vouch for the veracity of your statement ...
:coffee:

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Zom » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:53 pm

And you were there back then to now vouch for the veracity of your statement ...
I trust Buddha implicitly .)

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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by aflatun » Sun Jan 14, 2018 4:36 pm

robertk wrote:
Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:13 pm
It is a pity that monk didn't consult the Buddhist Dictionary by Nyanatiloka.

He would have learned that in only certain contexts nama excludes vinnana.

https://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm
nāma: (lit. 'name'): 'mind', mentality. This term is generally used as a collective name for the 4 mental groups (arūpino khandha), viz. feeling (vedanā), perception (saññā), mental formations (saṅkhāra) and consciousness (viññāṇa). Within the 4th link (nāma-rūpa) in the formula of the paṭiccasamuppāda (q.v.), however, it applies only to kamma-resultant (vipāka) feeling and perception and a few kamma-resultant mental functions inseparable from any consciousness. As it is said (M. 9; D. 15; S. XII, 2): "Feeling (vedanā), perception (saññā), volition (cetanā), impression (phassa), mental advertence (manasikāra): this, o brother, is called mind (nāma)
this is of course understood by the ancients and well explained.
Thank you for that Robert. Funny enough I read that somewhere recently as well. There seems to be a lot more subtlety to these issues than people want to acknowledge.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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robertk
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by robertk » Mon Jan 15, 2018 3:57 am

Thanks.
The ancient monks, the ones who recited and preserved the texts so they still remain till now, were truly a field for merit.

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