Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Tell us how you think the forum can be improved. We will listen.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 20130
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:05 am

Greetings Robert,

Are the suttas actually saying this is the case though, or just "the ancients"?

Because if being a "monk in Sri Lanka" is regarded as no particular grounds for authority, then I wonder how (other than playing favourites) why the weight of authority attributable on that basis is any different for ven. Buddhaghosa?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

User avatar
robertk
Posts: 2916
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by robertk » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:17 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:05 am
Greetings Robert,

Are the suttas actually saying this is the case though, or just "the ancients"?

Because if being a "monk in Sri Lanka" is regarded as no particular grounds for authority, then I wonder how (other than playing favourites) why the weight of authority attributable on that basis is any different for ven. Buddhaghosa?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well it was the Mahavihara and related temples that preserved the canon and Ancient Commentaries. Any recent monk who thinks differently can only be considered someone who is arguing against the ancients. Which is of course fine. But we cant say that what any moderns say should rank with the ones of old.
There are reasons why the monks for millenia kept the old teachings:

IB Horner writes ""The prime object of every Commentary is to make the meanings of the words and
phrases in the canonical passages it is elucidating abundantly clear, definite, definitive even....This is to preserve the Teachings of the Buddha as nearly as possible in the sense intended, and as conveyed by the succession of teachers, acariyaparama. Always there were detractors, always there were and still are "improvers" ready with their own notions. Through friends and enemies alike deleterous change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The Commentaries are the armour and protection against such an eventuality. AS they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they commnet on it. They are as closed now as is the Pali canon. No aditions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included in it
.""Horner. pxiii Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning" PAli Text Society 1978.

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:31 am

:computerproblem:
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 am

robertk wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 6:17 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:05 am
Greetings Robert,

Are the suttas actually saying this is the case though, or just "the ancients"?

Because if being a "monk in Sri Lanka" is regarded as no particular grounds for authority, then I wonder how (other than playing favourites) why the weight of authority attributable on that basis is any different for ven. Buddhaghosa?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well it was the Mahavihara and related temples that preserved the canon and Ancient Commentaries. Any recent monk who thinks differently can only be considered someone who is arguing against the ancients. Which is of course fine. But we cant say that what any moderns say should rank with the ones of old.
There are reasons why the monks for millenia kept the old teachings:

IB Horner writes ""The prime object of every Commentary is to make the meanings of the words and
phrases in the canonical passages it is elucidating abundantly clear, definite, definitive even....This is to preserve the Teachings of the Buddha as nearly as possible in the sense intended, and as conveyed by the succession of teachers, acariyaparama. Always there were detractors, always there were and still are "improvers" ready with their own notions. Through friends and enemies alike deleterous change and deterioration in the word of the Buddha might intervene for an indefinite length of time. The Commentaries are the armour and protection against such an eventuality. AS they hold a unique position as preservers and interpreters of true Dhamma, it is essential not only to follow them carefully and adopt the meaning they ascribe to a word or phrase each time they commnet on it. They are as closed now as is the Pali canon. No aditions to their corpus or subtractions from it are to contemplated, and no commentary written in later days could be included in it
.""Horner. pxiii Clarifier of the Sweet Meaning" PAli Text Society 1978.

I'm not convinced that blind adherence to what was thought previously ought to supersede our own investigation and understanding.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Dinsdale
Posts: 5986
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:54 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:05 am
Because if being a "monk in Sri Lanka" is regarded as no particular grounds for authority, then I wonder how (other than playing favourites) why the weight of authority attributable on that basis is any different for ven. Buddhaghosa?
One consideration is that Buddhaghosa was historically closer to the original teachings ( 1500 years earlier than contemporary commentators ), which might mean he had a better understanding of what the original teachings intended.

In any case I wouldn't dismiss Buddhaghosa on the basis that his views aren't contemporary, or that his views are somehow "old-fashioned".
Buddha save me from new-agers!

Dinsdale
Posts: 5986
Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2010 10:32 am
Location: Andromeda looks nice

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Dinsdale » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:03 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 am
I'm not convinced that blind adherence to what was thought previously ought to supersede our own investigation and understanding.
People can be blindly adherent to contemporary views as well.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:17 am

Dinsdale wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:03 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 am
I'm not convinced that blind adherence to what was thought previously ought to supersede our own investigation and understanding.
People can be blindly adherent to contemporary views as well.
Indeed. My point was only that we each have to strike a good balance between reliance on those who know, and our own sense of what is true.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:29 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:26 am
I'm not convinced that blind adherence to what was thought previously ought to supersede our own investigation and understanding.
I think this is assuming too much individuality and too much feeling threatened (I think threats importantly breed a sense of individuality); and I think this is an implict Abrahamic influence.
Take away the threat of eternal damnation, and the whole spiritual quest appears in a new light where neither "blind adherence" nor "one's own investigation and understanding" appear as options, much less as the only two options.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 722
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Pseudobabble » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:35 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:29 pm
Take away the threat of eternal damnation, and the whole spiritual quest appears in a new light where neither "blind adherence" nor "one's own investigation and understanding" appear as options, much less as the only two options.
I don't quite understand what you mean by this, could you explain further?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

binocular
Posts: 5638
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:41 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:35 pm
binocular wrote:
Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:29 pm
Take away the threat of eternal damnation, and the whole spiritual quest appears in a new light where neither "blind adherence" nor "one's own investigation and understanding" appear as options, much less as the only two options.
I don't quite understand what you mean by this, could you explain further?
I'm planning to summarize my thoughts on this and post a thread as soon as I can.
But until then --
In the formulation "one's own investigation and understanding", what exactly does "one's own" mean?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests