Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

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R1111
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Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by R1111 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:16 am

It is kind of weird that there is not one sticky Meditation thread.
There are many worthy threads on the forum so there is no lack of resources.

Another thing i want to suggest is having a Debate Sub for people who want to engage in such past-time.
Debates should also be more formal imo, ie the thread titled
"the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread"
We know it is definitely not annihilation or eternal, why legitimize these views? I doubt people with Right View would touch that thread with a ten foot pole and if they did their posts would get buried there.

I think having a more orderly debate space will make people debate less and more effectively.

Right view, Right meditation and Right Speech(debate/discussion) should be promoted and it is Admin's responsibility.
Last edited by R1111 on Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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DNS
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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by DNS » Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:21 pm

R1111 wrote:It is kind of weird that there is not one sticky Meditation thread. :jawdrop:
There are many worthy threads on the forum so there is no lack of resources.
There is a great jhana thread already.
Another thing i want to suggest is having a Debate Sub for people who want to engage in such past-time.
Debates should also be more formal imo, ie the thread titled
"the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread"
This thread exists and is already pinned.
We know it is definitely not annihilation or eternal, why legitimize these views?
How do you know this? Also, what some might call "Right View" another would call annihilation. So people need help and clarification with these issues.
I doubt people with Right View would touch that thread with a ten foot pole and if they did their posts would get buried there.
On the contrary, I think someone with Right View would want to help others with their issues regarding that topic.
Right view, Right meditation and Right Speech(debate/discussion) should be promoted and it is Admin's responsibility.
From the terms of service:
Terms of Service wrote:Members are expected to self-moderate, being mindful of the adage that 'behaviour breeds behaviour'. Mutual respect and friendliness should be the basis of all interactions. If you find anything objectionable, let the administrators or moderators know using the Report Post function, but refrain from posting public responses because meta-discussion has the tendency to derail topics.
It would be a bad precedent for admins and moderators to be the "Dhamma-Police" -- rather it is the duty of admins and moderators to enforce the terms of service, anything else would be imposing their own views on the membership.

R1111
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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by R1111 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:10 pm

David N. Snyder wrote: There is a great jhana thread already.
Why not make a FAQ or something with cliffs from that thread or analogue in example or pinning some of the most informative threads we have on meditation or making a compilation of sorts.
David N. Snyder wrote: How do you know this? Also, what some might call "Right View" another would call annihilation. So people need help and clarification with these issues
This is not hard to know, because there are Suttas directly contradicting alot of it, of the top of my head
Brahmajāla Sutta: The All-embracing Net of Views
and whole of SN 44.x Chapter
should give a very clear idea of what is wrong view at the minimum.
One can define Annihilation and Eternalism according to the Sutta and there is absolutely no risk in going wrong there in regards to "breaking Buddhism" or something.
David N. Snyder wrote: On the contrary, I think someone with Right View would want to help others with their issues regarding that topic.
I think a person holding Right View would want to contribute but would probably not be interested in Debating in that format. Why because there is no order to it, if some Ariya was to write a lengthy post there, there would be several people saying nah we don't believe it without any proof or proper evidence, there is no end to it as i see it.
IE i read the thread about Ajahn Mun, and a member refered to Sutta Pitaka as ink on paper and i am under impression that this is well tolerated, how is one supposed to debate under these conditions.

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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by DNS » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:20 pm

R1111 wrote: This is not hard to know, because there are Suttas directly contradicting alot of it, of the top of my head
Brahmajāla Sutta: The All-embracing Net of Views
and whole of SN 44.x Chapter
should give a very clear idea of what is wrong view at the minimum.
You have quoted some Sutta references, which are open to interpretation and in fact have been interpreted in various ways by Buddhists.
I think a person holding Right View would want to contribute but would probably not be interested in Debating in that format. Why because there is no order to it, if some Ariya was to write a lengthy post there, there would be several people saying nah we don't believe it without any proof or proper evidence, there is no end to it as i see it.
The Buddha taught the Dhamma to all, even the foolish ones. Many times he convinced them and got them on the right path, other times he did not convince them; at least he tried.

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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by R1111 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:30 pm

David N. Snyder wrote: You have quoted some Sutta references, which are open to interpretation and in fact have been interpreted in various ways by Buddhists.
I doubt most people who are debating the Nibbana thread have read those Suttas tho, i think it would help alot if there were some qualification to the debate, as in atleast having read those Suttas or atleast agreeing on Authority (Sutta Pitaka or Tipitaka) takes about an hour. We should be debating these interpretations and getting to bottom of it otherwise it is kind of pointless.

I am all for diversity of educated opinions but frankly i dont think people are entitled to be taked seriously if they dont have one.

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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by R1111 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:36 pm

identification wrote: Does anyone actually think they could ever go to Luangta with some black ink on paper and say look Luangta! You see you're wrong! Without being completely embarrassed and annihilated. It's easy to argue with an Ajahn that isn't here to defend himself.
Here someone just calls Word of the Tathagata for black ink on paper. I cant stand it, its really hurtful and is not right.

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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by DNS » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:46 pm

R1111 wrote: Here someone just calls Word of the Tathagata for black ink on paper. I cant stand it, its really hurtful and is not right.
Take it easy, it's just a discussion. He is entitled to his view just as you are free to counter his opinion.

Maybe it's a test of your equanimity, to help you along. :tongue:

R1111
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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by R1111 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:48 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
R1111 wrote: Here someone just calls Word of the Tathagata for black ink on paper. I cant stand it, its really hurtful and is not right.
Take it easy, it's just a discussion. He is entitled to his view just as you are free to counter his opinion.

Maybe it's a test of your equanimity, to help you along. :tongue:
It almost makes me cry tbh and not want to participate.
Then the Blessed One said to Ven. Ananda, "Now, if it occurs to any of you — 'The teaching has lost its authority; we are without a Teacher' — do not view it in that way. Whatever Dhamma & Vinaya I have pointed out & formulated for you, that will be your Teacher when I am gone.
We have authority of the Tipitaka, i understand it is not easy to tell whats right but it is not so hard to tell whats wrong often.

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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by R1111 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:07 pm

want to suggest once again a Separate moderated Debate subforum which is moderated according to these Suttas.
Kathavatthu Sutta: Topics for Discussion
Viggahika Sutta: Wordy Warfare
Kathavatthu Sutta: Topics of Conversation (1)

I think it would even make the thumbs up etc redundant and would definitely promote Right View naturally, because Right View shines in proper debate and it will always win given fair opportunity.

I would like to debate in that format and i think others would appreciate such platform as well, perhaps we could even have some profiled teachers come and debate in future.

In the Suttas we often see debates and cross questioning, but it is always done in orderly fashion and is therefore productive.

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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:00 pm

Greetings R1111,

If you wish to host a structured debate, then by all means, you are welcome to start a topic to do so. A new forum is not required for that...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

R1111
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Re: Sticky/Pinned Threads and debates.

Post by R1111 » Sun Apr 16, 2017 9:16 pm

That is true, sometimes its hard to see the obvious solution.

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