Bhikkhu Bodhi article in Inquiring Mind

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Dinsdale » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:32 am

Ben wrote:Thanks everyone for your words of support, they are greatly appreciated.
I think the team here does a pretty good job, particularly when compared to some of the other forums.
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Mr Man
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:13 am

appicchato wrote:One may consider putting themselves into the position of a moderator for a moment...a (basically) thankless, time consuming slog through virtually (if correct) every post...to ride herd on, and weed out, the possibly far flung (out there (of which there are many)) topics, and ((not infrequent) nebulous, ill informed, ignorant, and (occasionally) nasty) responses...to maintain some semblance of civility here...for no financial, material, or any other renumeration (other than the possible personal reward of being of service)...in a perfect world, maybe...but since we're all human (and what that entails)...and in light of Dhamma Wheel's track record...might not kudos, not criticism, be more the order of the day?...
:coffee:
It might also be worth taking into consideration that the criticism was from a relatively new member......

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:56 am

Greetings,

The topic in question is back.... http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=21602

Please note, it's now in the "hot topics" section, which means that (just like the Discovering Theravada section) each post will require moderator approval before being visible to others.

Please ensure that all new posts adhere to the actual topic - namely the respective views of Bhikkhus Bodhi & Thanissaro on the subject of war.

If you wish to speak more broadly on the subject of war, try here - http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=668 :jedi:

Thank you for your co-operation.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

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"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by paddington » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:30 pm

I would like to repost my previous question of where the full response from Thanissaro Bhikkhu can be found? It's not on inquiring mind (neither is Bhikkhu Bodhi's for that matter). I think it would be useful to have the whole thing if we are to discuss this intelligently.

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by paddington » Thu Sep 04, 2014 2:49 pm

I am new to the forums, so this is all a bit eye-opening for me (not necessarily in a good way). I have not explored the site thoroughly, but it seems some monks, like Bhikkhu Bodhi have a fairly active relationship with the site, and others like Bhikkhu Thanissaro might not. Could you briefly explain the degree and kind of relationship the site or site administrators have with each monk respectively?

It seems to me the thread was brought back to a point when it looked like most of the posts were in favor of Bhikkhu Bodhi. The consensus was shifting away from from justifying war towards the end, and the last third of the thread, including some very incisive Dhamma based arguments, were lopped off in one go. So the moderators have used their judgment, which I clearly disagree with. I am also curious about the first 5 or 6 comments on the thread which directly address Bhikkhu Thanissaro's tone and harshness, calling him "nasty". These seem to be a direct attack on an "ordained member of the Sangha" and quite afield from debating their respective positions, unless of course the purpose was otherwise.

I should have saved the thread as it was because all the posts I put time and effort into have been deleted. They were fair, based in the Dhamma, and not un-intelligent. I also thought some of the other posts were quite intelligent, on point and useful. I would appreciate it if the moderators could at least email me the old thread so I could repost some of my arguments without having to recreate them from scratch.

I regard this as a "formal" protest of sorts. Please don't advise me to "let it go." I would turn that around on the site admins and say, "why don't you just 'let it go' as it was?"

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:02 pm

paddington wrote:I would like to repost my previous question of where the full response from Thanissaro Bhikkhu can be found? It's not on inquiring mind (neither is Bhikkhu Bodhi's for that matter). I think it would be useful to have the whole thing if we are to discuss this intelligently.
This has been answered several times by other members and myself. It is right in the OP of that thread. It is from Inquiring Mind and unfortunately Inquiring Mind does not link to their articles online. They want you to subscribe to their hard copy paper issues. I believe the subscription amount is still a voluntary amount and as long as you make some donation to them at least once per year, they continue to send you paper copy issues, which is what I receive. Again, they do not post their articles online, which is why I could only post summaries / paraphrases of their main points.

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:12 pm

paddington wrote: It seems to me the thread was brought back to a point when it looked like most of the posts were in favor of Bhikkhu Bodhi. The consensus was shifting away from from justifying war towards the end, and the last third of the thread, including some very incisive Dhamma based arguments, were lopped off in one go. So the moderators have used their judgment, which I clearly disagree with. I am also curious about the first 5 or 6 comments on the thread which directly address Bhikkhu Thanissaro's tone and harshness, calling him "nasty". These seem to be a direct attack on an "ordained member of the Sangha" and quite afield from debating their respective positions, unless of course the purpose was otherwise.
I have removed those posts referring to his tone. In the future, use the (! mark above posts) report function to report a post and explain why you believe it should not be shown.

Several posts were removed from "both sides" of this issue, including several of my own.

The moderators and admins do not have direct personal contact with either of these bhikkhus and we have great respect for both scholar-monks. I personally have never met either one, but like both. Once I went to Wat Metta several years ago for a visit, but unfortunately Thanissaro Bhikkhu was away in another state leading a retreat.

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Re: Inquiring Mind / Bhikkhu Thanissaro's article

Post by paddington » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:13 pm

I appreciate your taking down the inappropriate posts at the beginning of the thread. I apologize for not using the exclamation mark to report them. As I said before, I am new to this, so I appreciate your patience as I learn the ropes.

I understand that neither B. Bodhi's article nor B. Thanissaro's response appear on the Inquiring Mind website. I also understand that B. Bodhi's full article appears in the print version of Inquiring Mind, but B. Thanissaro's never appeared in the print version. It is clear that what is posted and attributed to B. Thanissaro is an excerpt as it seems to be missing any kind of intro or conclusion. I would like to read the full "response" by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Maybe what was posted was taken out of context or maybe it's not his at all. I cannot find it on the internet anywhere. Can you please provide a link or a source?

Maybe this whole thread should be suspended until it can be established whether this "response" can be attributed at all to B. Thanissaro.
Last edited by paddington on Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by paddington » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:21 pm

It appears that my comments to the B. Bodhi / B. Thanissaro thread are being held back for approval by a moderator. Is this policy against my posts in particular, or does this apply to everybody posting to the thread? Was there a notice posted of this policy somewhere? Will my comments be silently deep-sixed or will I get some sort of feedback as to what exactly I said that was deemed inappropriate?

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Nicolas » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:32 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Please note, it's now in the "hot topics" section, which means that (just like the Discovering Theravada section) each post will require moderator approval before being visible to others.

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:32 pm

paddington wrote:It appears that my comments to the B. Bodhi / B. Thanissaro thread are being held back for approval by a moderator. Is this policy against my posts in particular, or does this apply to everybody posting to the thread? Was there a notice posted of this policy somewhere? Will my comments be silently deep-sixed or will I get some sort of feedback as to what exactly I said that was deemed inappropriate?
Patience is a virtue. There will be times when no moderator is online, and until a moderator is online, your msg will sit there minding its own business until it can get reviewed. And when it is reviewed, action on it will be taken. Again, see: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 20#p309445

What that means is that msgs will not appear until they are reviewed, and you can relax in the knowledge that this not directed at you. It so for everyone. http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 17#p280794
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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by rowboat » Thu Sep 04, 2014 7:33 pm

paddington wrote:It appears that my comments to the B. Bodhi / B. Thanissaro thread are being held back for approval by a moderator. Is this policy against my posts in particular, or does this apply to everybody posting to the thread? Was there a notice posted of this policy somewhere? Will my comments be silently deep-sixed or will I get some sort of feedback as to what exactly I said that was deemed inappropriate?
Hi, Padddington. A belated welcome to DhammaWheel. I'm sorry your first days here have been a little rough. The Vens. Bodhi vs. Thanissaro thread has been moved to the Hot Topics section where each post from all users are vetted before appearing.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by paddington » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:19 pm

Thank you for the informative responses. Does anybody know where to find B. Thanissaro's full response? The moderators keep saying Inquiring Mind, but that only answers where B. Bodhi's article came from. Is anybody in contact with Bhikkhu Thanissaro to confirm this is in fact his or where the rest of it can be found?

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:35 pm

paddington wrote:Thank you for the informative responses. Does anybody know where to find B. Thanissaro's full response? The moderators keep saying Inquiring Mind, but that only answers where B. Bodhi's article came from. Is anybody in contact with Bhikkhu Thanissaro to confirm this is in fact his or where the rest of it can be found?
It seems that David said quite directly in the OP: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 02#p307267 that what he reproduced was from Inquiring Mind, so if you want to read all of both articles you'll probably need to buy a copy.
http://www.inquiringmind.com/Subscribe.html

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Sep 04, 2014 9:47 pm

Hmm, I see David has clarified the facts here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 13#p309513

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Mkoll » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:11 pm

paddington wrote:I am new to the forums, so this is all a bit eye-opening for me (not necessarily in a good way). I have not explored the site thoroughly, but it seems some monks, like Bhikkhu Bodhi have a fairly active relationship with the site, and others like Bhikkhu Thanissaro might not. Could you briefly explain the degree and kind of relationship the site or site administrators have with each monk respectively?
Neither of them have ever posted on Dhamma Wheel, to my knowledge.
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by Mr Man » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:34 pm

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, I see David has clarified the facts here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 13#p309513
Seems rather odd that this has only just been fully clarified as this was raised a couple of times in the other thread.

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by cooran » Thu Sep 04, 2014 10:54 pm

Mkoll wrote:
paddington wrote:I am new to the forums, so this is all a bit eye-opening for me (not necessarily in a good way). I have not explored the site thoroughly, but it seems some monks, like Bhikkhu Bodhi have a fairly active relationship with the site, and others like Bhikkhu Thanissaro might not. Could you briefly explain the degree and kind of relationship the site or site administrators have with each monk respectively?
Neither of them have ever posted on Dhamma Wheel, to my knowledge.
However - Ven. Thanissaro has a huge thread devoted to quotations from his Teachings:

The Quotable Thanissaro
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... &start=420

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by DNS » Thu Sep 04, 2014 11:15 pm

I should have verified more conclusively and also explained more carefully. I did say it was from Inquiring Mind and this is true. Bhikkhu Bodhi's article is in the Spring 2014 issue. It was not clear if Thanissaro Bhikkhu's rebuttal was specifically in that same issue or if it is in Fall 2014 issue (imminent any day now).

The source is a fairly popular, very reputable bhikkhu. I am sure he wouldn't make it up. I sent him the email as explained earlier. I just took another look at the email conversation I had with him and the scans he sent me. At the top of Thanissaro Bhikkhu's rebuttal are the words: "To the Editors of Inquiring Mind" so it does indeed appear that he had an advanced copy of the Fall 2014 issue, but I will let you know for sure once I hear from him.

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Re: An active moderator shouldn't enter debate

Post by paddington » Fri Sep 05, 2014 1:48 am

Thank you for looking into this question. I also think it might be a good idea for you to call Bhikkhu Thanissaro to find out what his take on the circumstances are surrounding the release of this letter apparently ahead of publication, and whether he thinks this excerpt fairly represents his position. It looks like this is the contact info for Bhikkhu Thanissaro. http://www.watmetta.org/contact.html

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