Race, gender a no go?

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dhammafriend
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Race, gender a no go?

Post by dhammafriend » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:24 am

I find it alarming that threads are being locked relating especially to gender issues. Can we not have these in the hot topics section and keep them open? I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.

I feel the 'tone' of Dhammawheel lately has become very unfriendly / unsafe especially for females. Lots of 'tone' / 'behavioral' policing of female members etc. Really sad to see Dhammawheel coming to this. Can we discuss please?

Metta
Dhammafriend
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:38 am

dhammafriend wrote: I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.
Could turn into a moderation nightmare? They do turn into a moderation nightmare, without fail.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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dhammafriend
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by dhammafriend » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:26 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhammafriend wrote: I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.
Could turn into a moderation nightmare? They do turn into a moderation nightmare, without fail.
What about issues like Isreal / Palestine etc? Those are allowed to continue and I've seen some confrontational comments on threads like that. We'll never change the climate for women here if we shut down the discussions that affect them. Abortion in Buddhist view, sexual harassment, rape etc. And yes, we've had discussions specific to men, remember those masturbation threads?

I suggest moving it to hot topics with the proviso that people understand that right speech might be breached (within reason) and they should be prepared for that.

Metta
Dhammafriend
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:31 am

Just delete the posts that violate the TOS instead of locking the thread. Most users manage to post without being racist, sexist, or otherwise disruptive. If some members repeatedly violate the TOS, then apply sanctions such as withdrawing posting rights for a day or two.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:35 am

dhammafriend wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
dhammafriend wrote: I understand it could turn into a moderation nightmare but locking these types of threads usually ends up shutting out women, people of different racial and cultural backgrounds (sensed some hostility towards Indian nationals more than a few times on this site) and people who are gay, lesbian etc.
Could turn into a moderation nightmare? They do turn into a moderation nightmare, without fail.
What about issues like Isreal / Palestine etc? Those are allowed to continue and I've seen some confrontational comments on threads like that.
If it were up to me the Isreali/Palestinian business would be totally banned from discussions here, given the unwholsome heat it generates.
We'll never change the climate for women here if we shut down the discussions that affect them.
I have not seen in those discussions reasonable exchanges. I see a lot of male digging in of heals.


And yes, we've had discussions specific to men, remember those masturbation threads?
Women do not self pleasure? Sex is another topic that generates a lot of heat and little actual understanding.
I suggest moving it to hot topics with the proviso that people understand that right speech might be breached (within reason) and they should be prepared for that.
We could try such discussions in the moderated "Open Dhamma Hot Topics" if that is what you mean. That would not be a bad idea -- maybe.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 18, 2014 9:56 am

If the objective of post is not clearly related to Dhamma the person who post the OP should clearly demonstrate the objective of the final out come of the post.
What is the objective of the OP in regard to Isreali/Palestinian business ?
:thinking:

One of my posts "Handling of money by monks" was deleted.
I am sure moderators must have frustrated with the similar thread "Broken Buddha'
But my objective was:
a)If I become a monk should I handle the money?
b)If I handle the money as a monk how I justify it to a lay person?
c)If monks break the precept what is the use of having a precept?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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dhammafriend
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by dhammafriend » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:00 am

We could try such discussions in the moderated "Open Dhamma Hot Topics" if that is what you mean. That would not be a bad idea -- maybe.
Thank you. Please think about it. If there are any female forum members who have any suggestions, ideas would be welcome. :namaste:

Metta
Dhammfriend
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

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Sokehi
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by Sokehi » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:44 am

In my experience some of these "hot" threads degenerate to an endless exchange of fixed views and positions - and yes I know I'm playing or have played this game too. For two days now or so I contemplated: it might be best to post just once, explain my position or view or ideas to a certain topic and then leave it like that. Why do I, why do we need to repeat ourselves all the time? Is it about winning in a discussion?

In a way a "Buddhist Discussion Forum" is a weired thing in itself. I guess we all know that views are impermanent, unsatisfactory and therefore not self. And still myself and others bang each others heads against virtual walls. It is sad, but it's just the way it is. It's a crazy world, we are all more or less crazy.

I have mixed feelings about threads being closed: In a way it is relaxing since a moderator figured that the outcome won't be particularly helpful or wholesome or the thread is not developing anymore to some sort of consensus or at least mutual respect. So everybody then can relax and contemplate: what was my role here or there for the decline of this thread? Sometimes I go over my own posts and quite often I think: wow, I really wrote that? Am I such a deluded cynical and confrontative person? So a "Buddhist Discussion Forum" is helpful in this way - a trainining ground for "Right Communication" since "Right Speech" nowadays is quite often written. I have a lot of respect for all the users I have discussed with. I might sound often as being "sure" about my position that I'm defending, but in reality I'm not. I'm working of old Khamma and seeing my discussion patterns and manerisms is helpful to hopefully develop to something more open, more spacious and more kind.

So if a thread has been shut down it is sad since it shows where are the "frontlines" here. Most often Gender, Race, Politics and such. Closed threads are symptoms to see where this community that is dedicated to compassion, loving kindness, generosity and all those different buddhist values is still lacking sometimes "perfect" communication skills. But I don't worry, it's a crazy world, a super-crazy internet, we are "living in". I suppose we are all trying our best here and within this assumption I find peace and understanding. This forum can't be perfect and it will never be. Myself and most users here won't be perfect in this lifetime either.

I'm fine with threads being closed or if they are left open, it doesn't matter to me much. But every thread that needed to be shut down is a clear sign that users (some, me, others, them, all or just few) "didn't get it right" in terms of Right Communication.

Sometimes it is the best to practice "letting go" of threads as I suggested in the beginning of this post. If in doubt relax and stop contributing when you realize the heat is boiling up, the thicket of views is growing. Step back a bit and contemplate if you view a certain thread or topic after a few days in the same way. This gives an opportunity of coming out of a possible rut of endless fighting.

Slightly off topic:
I hope that women users will feel more comfortable in this forum in the future. We are all in this boat together of suffering and death, it doesn't matter what gender we are, we shouldn't be this gender blocking of this gender, or this group of people talking about the "others". It'd be best if we talk together then just "about" each other.

And please all accept my apology for being sometimes very stubborn. Be sure I'm working on it but quite often I slip. :heart:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Mkoll
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by Mkoll » Mon Aug 18, 2014 10:56 am

Sokehi wrote:But every thread that needed to be shut down is a clear sign that users (some, me, others, them, all or just few) "didn't get it right" in terms of Right Communication.
Not to let us users off the hook, but some topics are virtually guaranteed to get ugly. Like the Israel/Palestine thing. I haven't seen one of those threads stay cool. Maybe that kind of discussion should banned, I dunno.

Gender issues aren't quite as contentious as all that.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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dhammafriend
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by dhammafriend » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:20 am

Sorry, I'm back...
I hope that women users will feel more comfortable in this forum in the future.
How are they supposed to feel comfortable when threads are locked because men are getting defensive?
...it doesn't matter what gender we are...
That attitude is exactly what allows all the BS that women, gays etc have to face. You are denying the validity of someone's experience.
You can teach a starving person anatta, 4noble truths etc, but they will still drop dead from hunger. When you acknowledge that they are starving, you can then feed them and teach the 4noble truths etc.

Metta
Dhammafriend
Metta
Dhammafriend

Natthi me saranam annam buddho me saranam varam
For me there is no other refuge, the Buddha is my excellent refuge.
Etena saccavajjena vaddheyyam satthu-sasane
By the utterance of this truth, may I grow in the Master’s Way.

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Mr Man
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by Mr Man » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:31 am

I think both of the threads (Sexism and Gaza) should be okay topics for discussion and are relevant and important. I also think they were both closed at just about the right time.

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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:33 am

dhammafriend wrote:Sorry, I'm back...
I hope that women users will feel more comfortable in this forum in the future.
How are they supposed to feel comfortable when threads are locked because men are getting defensive?
For the record, I locked the thread because of a request from a woman: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 15#p306511

Furthermore, it was starting to repeat the same arguments as number of previous threads:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=11651
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11686

:anjali:
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Sokehi
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by Sokehi » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:19 pm

dhammafriend wrote:Sorry, I'm back...
I hope that women users will feel more comfortable in this forum in the future.
How are they supposed to feel comfortable when threads are locked because men are getting defensive?
...it doesn't matter what gender we are...
That attitude is exactly what allows all the BS that women, gays etc have to face. You are denying the validity of someone's experience.
You can teach a starving person anatta, 4noble truths etc, but they will still drop dead from hunger. When you acknowledge that they are starving, you can then feed them and teach the 4noble truths etc.

Metta
Dhammafriend
You might misunderstand me here - I guess badly. I don't want to turn this thread around into discussion gender issues or whatever, this thread I guess is not about discussions that have been raised in numerous other topics. At least I did understand the OP that way.

Most who know me here know that I strongly oppose inequality, revisionism, fascism, racism and in particular have received for my pro-bhikkuni approach quite some heat. So again, I guess you misunderstand me here totally.

And "BS" is not very much right speech btw.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr

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Sokehi
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by Sokehi » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:22 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Sokehi wrote:But every thread that needed to be shut down is a clear sign that users (some, me, others, them, all or just few) "didn't get it right" in terms of Right Communication.
Not to let us users off the hook, but some topics are virtually guaranteed to get ugly. Like the Israel/Palestine thing. I haven't seen one of those threads stay cool. Maybe that kind of discussion should banned, I dunno.

Gender issues aren't quite as contentious as all that.
I agree ... and probably that would be a good idea but could give raise to "censorship" arguments. Still buddhism is not about having taboos or taboo topics. (New) users could misunderstand the intention of preventing these discussions :anjali:
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

https://www.youtube.com/user/Repeataarrr

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purple planet
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Re: Race, gender a no go?

Post by purple planet » Mon Aug 18, 2014 4:48 pm

To talk for myself alone - for me there is no problem if both sides get censored or both allowed - the problem is when the censorship is leaning towards one side : one side gets censored faster one side gets a post removed while another gets the whole thread removed ect
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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