Race, gender a no go?

[SarathW]

Dhammafriend
It appears to me that you are overly reacting to this very common human weakness.
I can related to you as I was very sensitive to this some years ago.
If you are nice to people they don't see your colour or sex or what ever. (you may find some odd people)
All this time I thought that you are a white female.
I still don't know whether Cooran is male or female. (Because these are not material to me)

[Sokehi]

My apologies Sokehi, I was still angry and irritated about Cooran's thread. I was a bit harsh here. What worries me more than the outright sexism, racism, homophobia etc is attitudes that render it invisible. The usual bland platitudes: we are all the same, we are all equal, we shouldn't see race.. Despite people proclaiming from the rooftops that they do not see race etc, none of the attitudes above actually address real issues, but rather actually encourage them to flourish by them by making them 'invisible'.

No worries friend

Well I said this in another thread before: if people lack or suppress compassion they mix sometimes conventional with absoulte reality. Absolute: no gender, no race, no me, no you. Conventional: I am here, you are here, and there is what people identify as "race" (false in itself you know but here we go) or different sexes, genders, LGBT's and so on. So if people subjectively suffer under prejudice and harassment for differing attributes of their body, mindest etc. it's easy as a buddhist to say "Just let go, you are attached to your self view". This might be right, sakkaya ditthi is a truth. But ugly behaviour and jerkish harrasments are true too and people who suffer under this should not torture themselves for being "not good enough" for not being able to let this go quickly and easily. To say it's your fault because you can't let go immediately is the same as accusing someone for not being an Arahant. And those are rare fulfilled beings, I guess I haven't met one yet in 40 years.

So I guess a compassionate approach is to listen carefully to other peoples experiences and subjective histories of discrimination and to help them to be at ease foremost. Then when the right time and place has come one can help them further by pointing towards the absolute truth, that Racists or Sexists etc. don't see this truth, don't understand the four noble truths and the three characteristics of existence.

To exclusively point towards the absolute truth is a sign of intelligence, of a functioning rational mind. But if this is lacking compassion or empathy it is still not the eightfold path of the Buddha - but the twofold or threefold path. And this is not wisdom as I see it.

[Sokehi]

If you are nice to people they don't see your colour or sex or what ever. (you may find some odd people)

They are A LOT of odd people on this planet and during it's history. The Nazi regime, Pol Pot, Stalin, the KKK, the ISIS, Taliban, Al Quaida, the Pancasila milita in Indonesia etc. pp. and the everyday latent racist next door. For some it's not enough that you are nice and friendly, some are blinded by their false and deluded believes I'm afraid.

[Mkoll]

To say it's your fault because you can't let go immediately is the same as accusing someone for not being an Arahant. And those are rare fulfilled beings, I guess I haven't met one yet in 40 years.

...

To exclusively point towards the absolute truth is a sign of intelligence, of a functioning rational mind. But if this is lacking compassion or empathy it is still not the eightfold path of the Buddha - but the twofold or threefold path. And this is not wisdom as I see it.

Yes, I learned a new term for this kind of "compassionless wisdom": emptiness sickness. Definitely something to be wary of in oneself and others.

[Modus.Ponens]

You might misunderstand me here - I guess badly. I don't want to turn this thread around into discussion gender issues or whatever, this thread I guess is not about discussions that have been raised in numerous other topics. At least I did understand the OP that way.

Most who know me here know that I strongly oppose inequality, revisionism, fascism, racism and in particular have received for my pro-bhikkuni approach quite some heat. So again, I guess you misunderstand me here totally.

And "BS" is not very much right speech btw.

My apologies Sokehi, I was still angry and irritated about Cooran's thread. I was a bit harsh here. What worries me more than the outright sexism, racism, homophobia etc is attitudes that render it invisible. The usual bland platitudes: we are all the same, we are all equal, we shouldn't see race.. Despite people proclaiming from the rooftops that they do not see race etc, none of the attitudes above actually address real issues, but rather actually encourage them to flourish by them by making them 'invisible'.

I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread. I don't always know the gender or race of other contributors, and I'm not aware of treating people any differently when I do know.

If people are wanting more discussion of race and gender issues that's fine by me, though I'd be concerned if it came to dominate discussion here.

As for these tops being relevant, who gets to decide that? I went for refuge quite a few years ago, but I did not stop being a black male living in a post colonial developing nation. It affects all aspects of my Buddhist practice. My access to monastics, teachings etc. My race determines how I am seen by others. You can trust me on that, or dismiss it as nonsense. If you choose to dismiss my interpretation of my experience, you are part of the 'problem'. Plain and simple. Just a general comment based on your post Spiny, not directed to you specifically.

Metta
Dhammafriend

This is why I am not a fan of political correctness. Because people who can only say platitudes are deluding themselves. And it hides these problems of race and gender. This does not mean that people shouldn't be kind to one another here. Being kind and not being politicaly correct are not mutualy exclusive behaviours.

Mr Man: I know mine was a bold statement, but I stand by it as long if correctly understood. There are many levels of resentment, like there are many levels of anger, or attachment or envy. If I consider all of the levels of resentment, that resentment is a mixture of attachment and aversion, and that only Anagamis and Arahats are completely free from attachment and aversion, then I think the rest of us have this resentment with a very wide variation of degree.

Spiny Norman: I don't want more or less discussion. I am saying that, if it arises, it's best to discuss it, than leaving it under the rug.

[SarathW]

Ask question "Am I free from all the possible discriminations?"
Also remember this is one of eight worldly conditions. Even Buddha has to go through this.

[Spiny Norman]

I'm not really sure how to respond to this thread. I don't always know the gender or race of other contributors, and I'm not aware of treating people any differently when I do know.

As for these tops being relevant, who gets to decide that? I went for refuge quite a few years ago, but I did not stop being a black male living in a post colonial developing nation. It affects all aspects of my Buddhist practice. My access to monastics, teachings etc. My race determines how I am seen by others. You can trust me on that, or dismiss it as nonsense. If you choose to dismiss my interpretation of my experience, you are part of the 'problem'. Plain and simple. Just a general comment based on your post Spiny, not directed to you specifically.

I'm sorry you've had those experiences, but until you just said above I didn't know you were a black male - that was really my point.

[dhammafriend]

Dhammafriend
It appears to me that you are overly reacting to this very common human weakness.
I can related to you as I was very sensitive to this some years ago.
If you are nice to people they don't see your colour or sex or what ever. (you may find some odd people)
All this time I thought that you are a white female.
I still don't know whether Cooran is male or female. (Because these are not material to me)

Thank you SarathW & sadhu to you. Apologies to all for my harsh speech on this thread.

Metta
Dhammafriend

[philosopher]

Still, if it is true, this being a "Buddhist discussion forum", I would have thought that cultivating wholesome states (e.g. kindness, compassion), and reducing unwholesome states (e.g. aversion, fear) would be an apt mode of discussion, no matter what the topic.

The idea that someone else (i.e. a mod) determines whether or not a topic, in and of itself, is "unwholesome" or unsuitable intuitively does not seem like it would foster skillfulness, which I assume is what most of us want to cultivate. Rather, paying attention to how a topic is discussed would help cultivate discernment and agility in one's practice.

Is the point of this path to arrange circumstances such that we come in contact only with arbitrarily defined "wholesome" items, or is it to be able to be free and at peace in any circumstance - no matter how ugly, how chaotic, how steeped in "unwholesomeness"? Is it the content of the experience that is unwholesome or our attitude towards it?