Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Tell us how you think the forum can be improved. We will listen.
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Bundokji
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Bundokji » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:25 am

I like this forum and i thank those who own it and manage it. It is an act of generosity to offer a platform for Buddhists who live in a non-Buddhist countries like myself.

A distinction was made by previous discussants between "Dhammic" threads and "worldly" threads such as politics and other social topics, implying that dhamma threads are somehow superior to worldly threads. Personally, i am of a different opinion. I tend to be more interested in the so-called "worldly" threads for the simple reason that it reflects on how we understand the Dhamma in events affecting everyday life.

In fact, i found the threads on Dhamma to be harmful, at least to me. The suttas are often used to justify a wide variety of views and understandings, more as a tool for rationalizing ones own biases and beliefs. While in the politics section of the forum, its easier to detect nonsensical views as there is less room to appeal to authority (the authority being the suttas in this particular instance)

After all, what we can speak about sanely, objectively and clearly as human beings is what is in the world. If there is anything outside the world or outside our common experience of it, we better remain silent about it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:35 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:25 am
I like this forum and i thank those who own it and manage it. It is an act of generosity to offer a platform for Buddhists who live in a non-Buddhist countries like myself.

A distinction was made by previous discussants between "Dhammic" threads and "worldly" threads such as politics and other social topics, implying that dhamma threads are somehow superior to worldly threads. Personally, i am of a different opinion. I tend to be more interested in the so-called "worldly" threads for the simple reason that it reflects on how we understand the Dhamma in events affecting everyday life.

In fact, i found the threads on Dhamma to be harmful, at least to me. The suttas are often used to justify a wide variety of views and understandings, more as a tool for rationalizing ones own biases and beliefs. While in the politics section of the forum, its easier to detect nonsensical views as there is less room to appeal to authority (the authority being the suttas in this particular instance)

After all, what we can speak about sanely, objectively and clearly as human beings is what is in the world. If there is anything outside the world or outside our common experience of it, we better remain silent about it.
:goodpost:
Wittgenstein Tractatus 7 wrote:Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

binocular
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:10 am

Bundokji wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:25 am
A distinction was made by previous discussants between "Dhammic" threads and "worldly" threads such as politics and other social topics, implying that dhamma threads are somehow superior to worldly threads. Personally, i am of a different opinion. I tend to be more interested in the so-called "worldly" threads for the simple reason that it reflects on how we understand the Dhamma in events affecting everyday life.
Excellent point!
The way people approach political topics is a practical example of applied Dhamma (or not applied).

I always try to bring Dhammic points into those worldly discussions, and from the way that people speak about worldly things I try to figure out what they really believe about the Dhamma (and the implications thereof).

But much to my surprise, and even bewilderment, it has happened several times that some people criticized me for this, and put forward an attitude of "This is the politics section, the Dhamma isn't to be discussed here" or "This is the politics section, a place where we can finally catch some respite from the Dhamma".

I'm all for the news and politics section -- as long as it is handled Dhammically.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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retrofuturist
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:29 am

Greetings binocular,
binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:10 am
But much to my surprise, and even bewilderment, it has happened several times that some people criticized me for this, and put forward an attitude of "This is the politics section, the Dhamma isn't to be discussed here" or "This is the politics section, a place where we can finally catch some respite from the Dhamma".
That's odd. I've never seen anything like that... was it PM'ed to you?

Either way, it's a very odd thing for someone to expect of you given the tagline of that forum is "A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics."

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

binocular
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by binocular » Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:37 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 10:29 am
That's odd. I've never seen anything like that... was it PM'ed to you?
No, it was in open forums. I'll have to think of some useful keywords to find those posts.
But if you saw my reaction to Alan's hate Trump thread -- that reaction is based on such dismissals I mentioned earlier.
This is a very mild recent example:
perkele wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:09 pm
alan wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 am
Here is why I hate Trump, and why you should, too.
binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:25 am
This post is clearly against the TOS:
2. Speech
g. Attacks against the Buddha, Dhamma, or Sangha, which violate the Intention of this forum (See Section 1. Intention for details)
Indulging in hatred and calling upon others to do so is undhammic.
Jesus... :rolleye:
There is and always has been a lot of undhammic discussion here.
/.../
That is just normal shitposting which has been an ancient custom here and across the web since beginningless time.
Either way, it's a very odd thing for someone to expect of you given the tagline of that forum is "A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics."
Maybe more people should read that tagline!
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Mr Man
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:03 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:19 am
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:43 pm
I think it is a false equivalence comparing antagonism to an individual and antagonism to a religion/large grouping
I understand that you are talking about the proportion of incidents, but from a practical perspective, this is incorrect. Hatred of a person, and hatred of a category (of people, cars, w/e), both excite the same emotions and mental states, cause the same neurochemical cascades in the brain, and the same physiological and hormonal responses - raising adrenaline, noradrenaline, increased heart rate, etc etc. In fact, hatred of anything causes these changes. Which is why it is hatred per se which is advised against by the Buddha. It's not 'ok' to hate some people or categories, whether it be Trump or 'Muslims', because they don't accord with our societally conditioned morality.
Hi Pseudobabble
Yes hatred is not positive. But not all hatred is equal. Some hatred is more damaging.

I don't believe I ever said or implied that it is "'ok' to hate some people or categories"

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:26 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:03 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:19 am
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:43 pm
I think it is a false equivalence comparing antagonism to an individual and antagonism to a religion/large grouping
I understand that you are talking about the proportion of incidents, but from a practical perspective, this is incorrect. Hatred of a person, and hatred of a category (of people, cars, w/e), both excite the same emotions and mental states, cause the same neurochemical cascades in the brain, and the same physiological and hormonal responses - raising adrenaline, noradrenaline, increased heart rate, etc etc. In fact, hatred of anything causes these changes. Which is why it is hatred per se which is advised against by the Buddha. It's not 'ok' to hate some people or categories, whether it be Trump or 'Muslims', because they don't accord with our societally conditioned morality.
Hi Pseudobabble
Yes hatred is not positive. But not all hatred is equal. Some hatred is more damaging.

I don't believe I ever said or implied that it is "'ok' to hate some people or categories"

Could you tell me which hatred is more damaging than which other, and why?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Mr Man
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Mr Man » Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:36 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:26 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:03 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:19 am


I understand that you are talking about the proportion of incidents, but from a practical perspective, this is incorrect. Hatred of a person, and hatred of a category (of people, cars, w/e), both excite the same emotions and mental states, cause the same neurochemical cascades in the brain, and the same physiological and hormonal responses - raising adrenaline, noradrenaline, increased heart rate, etc etc. In fact, hatred of anything causes these changes. Which is why it is hatred per se which is advised against by the Buddha. It's not 'ok' to hate some people or categories, whether it be Trump or 'Muslims', because they don't accord with our societally conditioned morality.
Hi Pseudobabble
Yes hatred is not positive. But not all hatred is equal. Some hatred is more damaging.

I don't believe I ever said or implied that it is "'ok' to hate some people or categories"

Could you tell me which hatred is more damaging than which other, and why?
This is all a bit off topic

But for example the hatred that would lead someone to kill their parents is worse than hatred for the x-factor. The consequences would be worse.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by Pseudobabble » Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:53 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:36 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:26 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:03 pm


Hi Pseudobabble
Yes hatred is not positive. But not all hatred is equal. Some hatred is more damaging.

I don't believe I ever said or implied that it is "'ok' to hate some people or categories"

Could you tell me which hatred is more damaging than which other, and why?
This is all a bit off topic

But for example the hatred that would lead someone to kill their parents is worse than hatred for the x-factor. The consequences would be worse.

What if you hated the X-Factor so much that you were driven to kill contestants? It seems to me that it is the intensity or severity of the motivating factor (in this case, hatred) which is most important.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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L.N.
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by L.N. » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:20 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:04 am
... it's just that we had one particular member who took it upon himself to play Dhamma Cop and incessantly hound and badger anyone who said anything contrary to his understandings of what was important, what should be respected and what should be protected.
I understand you are referring to me.

If you actually read the words in the OPs which you found so offensive, you would have realized I was not playing "Dhamma cop."

How about a little more mutual respect and friendliness? These are your TOS, not mine.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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retrofuturist
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:24 am

Greetings L.N.,
L.N. wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:20 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 12:04 am
... it's just that we had one particular member who took it upon himself to play Dhamma Cop and incessantly hound and badger anyone who said anything contrary to his understandings of what was important, what should be respected and what should be protected.
I understand you are referring to me.
You understand incorrectly.
L.N. wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:20 am
How about a little more mutual respect and friendliness?
How about a little less assuming the worst, and being repeatedly wrong as a result of your faithlessness?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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L.N.
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by L.N. » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:24 am
... your faithlessness ...
What are you talking about?
DNS wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 9:54 pm
It is just that the argumentative ones stick out and give the appearance that the forum is being dominated by them, when actually they are rare and cordiality and helpful posts are really quite common.
One of the most "argumentative" participants here is your administrator retrofuturists. While I repeatedly have said I appreciate his and your hard work in providing this forum, we can do without the lack of friendliness and lack of mutual respect which your administrator very commonly puts on display, including in this topic about "Let's make this form our Buddhist!"
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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L.N.
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by L.N. » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:29 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:10 am
If you need me to say that explicitly to you personally to help with that healing process, please let me know. If you feel in any way wronged by me, please get in touch.
Right. My experience with doing this with you is that the result is you make excuses for yourself and you respond with recriminations.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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retrofuturist
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:35 am

Greetings L.N.,
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:24 am
... your faithlessness ...
L.N. wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 am
What are you talking about?
Your inclination to assume the worst and be lacking in good faith, in terms of interpersonal engagement - and being conclusively in error as a result, whenever you do so.

I hope that has clarified the meaning in detail of what was said in brief.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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L.N.
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Re: Let's make this forum more Buddhist!

Post by L.N. » Thu Dec 21, 2017 3:22 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:35 am
Greetings L.N.,
retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:24 am
... your faithlessness ...
L.N. wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:26 am
What are you talking about?
Your inclination to assume the worst and be lacking in good faith, in terms of interpersonal engagement - and being conclusively in error as a result, whenever you do so.

I hope that has clarified the meaning in detail of what was said in brief.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Look in the mirror, friend.

First, this is not "my inclination," as you put it. You cannot read my mind. You do not know how my mind is inclined. If I tell you my mind is inclined toward Dhamma, you do not believe me.

Second, this Topic should not be about any individual, and your personalized comments about me are inappropriate. You have stated your position that you do not believe you have to take personal responsibility for your words, so I understand that you, an administrator of this forum, will feel very much free to continue making off-topic personalized comments about others (not just me).

Third, your invasion of the following Topic demonstrates what appears to be (note that I said "appears to be" as I cannot read your mind) your own inclination to "assume the worst" and "be lacking in good faith, in terms of interpersonal engagement." viewtopic.php?f=42&t=30610. It seems evident to me that you have responded to the "Right Speech" topics out of your right-wing political agenda, because you erroneously have perceived in the "Right Speech" topics a liberal effort to control other's speech, or to engage in censorship. You personally ruined these Topics by invading them with your highly inappropriate, inflammatory, off-topic comments about me. The Topics were supposed to be friendly, mutually respectful topics about Sila.

The topic of this Topic is "Let's make this form more Buddhist!" It would be more Buddhist if you and other member(s) of the Team would desist from politicizing discussions here, and would desist from making off-topic personalized comments and engaging in gratuitous recriminations.

You personally have made this forum a less Buddhist place.
Sire patitthitā Buddhā
Dhammo ca tava locane
Sangho patitthitō tuiham
uresabba gunākaro


愿众佛坐在我的头顶, 佛法在我的眼中, 僧伽,功德的根源, 端坐在我的肩上。

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