autistic, ACIM, stages of enlightenment

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paul
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Re: autistic, ACIM, stages of enlightenment

Post by paul »

[quote
“I hope, Bhante, that no white-robed layman was present?”
[/quote]
AN 8.23 Sutta Central

There is a difference between the Buddha discussing attainments in the company of monks and discussing them in a public context, which should not be done.
cookiemonster
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Re: autistic, ACIM, stages of enlightenment

Post by cookiemonster »

paul wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:13 am... discussing them in a public context, which should not be done.
Agreed ... a public announcement is unskillful speech, but IMO one should also keep in mind Right Speech if asked in a personal context, where one abstains from lying, speaking at the right time, truthfully, beneficially, and without intent to deceive.
paul
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Re: autistic, ACIM, stages of enlightenment

Post by paul »

cookiemonster wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:59 pm
paul wrote: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:13 am... discussing them in a public context, which should not be done.
Agreed ... a public announcement is unskillful speech, but IMO one should also keep in mind Right Speech if asked in a personal context, where one abstains from lying, speaking at the right time, truthfully, beneficially, and without intent to deceive.
That raises what is the fundamental reason adepts do not discuss attainment, that being sila is the foundation of samadhi, and they wisely want to protect samadhi.
"This means you start clinging to that which is good or wholesome. You become fearful of any blemishes or faults in the mind - anxious that your samadhi will be harmed by them."---"The Path to Peace", Ajahn Chah
suaimhneas
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Re: autistic, ACIM, stages of enlightenment

Post by suaimhneas »

grumpyfreyr wrote: Fri Jan 11, 2019 7:04 pm There's also a question that so far I seem unwilling to let go. It goes something like this: What is the common stage of attainment (is that how to call it?) for Buddhists? Both among monastic communities, and among lay people? Nobody seems to talk about it. Like, people don't say "Hi, I'm Alison, 53, Sotapanna". Why do people not report their state? Is it considered rude? Am I just very naive and don't realise that there are people in the world who would lie about it and this would lead to problems?
I'm uncertain as to where would be a good place to ask such questions. Any help would be appreciated.

I understand the teaching, but not the learners.
I think these are fairly valid questions. It would be nice for beginners to get a rough idea of the frequency of different attainments. I get the impression that a certain percentage of dedicated long-term practitioners in many spiritual paths do end up in interesting places (degrees of enlightenment or whatever, though, of course, ideas of enlightenment differ). I suspect different people in different paths get into similar territory, though the language and terminology may differ (though I'm not saying that's entirely the case, different paths may just sometimes lead to different experiences). Though there's also the problem that the people making such public claims tend to be probably not the people who actually really have them (likelier to be self-deluded or have ego issues). I get the impression the genuine ones probably are often living low-key rather ordinary lives and not too bothered about such things (things might slip out naturally in conversations with other fairly serious practitioners about practice issues etc.). I suppose Vinaya rules don't really help in Buddhism (monastics would I guess be much more likely to get into such interesting territory). I think Ajahn Chah was quoted as saying once that a monastic that didn't get to stream entry within a year or two wasn't practicing properly (or were wasting their time). Not sure how true that is generally.

I came across a link to an interesting book gathering stream entry and other higher experience personal accounts recently (having being weighing up whether to buy it):
https://www.equinoxpub.com/home/enterin ... -sirimane/
That looks like an interesting approach. Perhaps a kind of work-around for Vinaya issues. Would be interesting if an anonymous survey like this was done for, say, Western monastics. Or even for dedicated lay practitioners of long experience (maybe 20 years practice). Get a reasonably large survey of where they've ended up. Could be useful for someone thinking of taking up a path. It's a reasonable question for a beginner. If I practice this path for a long period, where am I likely to end up? Happier? Do longer-term practitioners think it was worth doing in retrospect etc. Or what percentage had a negative experience? Could possibly be an interesting PhD project for some student in Buddhist Studies.
apophenia
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Re: autistic, ACIM, stages of enlightenment

Post by apophenia »

grumpyfreyr wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:21 pm Okay, next question:
is there an online forum or group that's just for ariya? (where they can talk about what's going on for them without anyone going ape shit about it)
If you want more open discussion about attainments, try https://www.reddit.com/r/streamentry/ and https://www.dharmaoverground.org/.
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Dan74-MkII
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Re: autistic, ACIM, stages of enlightenment

Post by Dan74-MkII »

grumpyfreyr wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:42 am
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:04 am Well, here's a very old thread on the sotapanna issue to give you a flavour.

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=4857
I find Kevin's experience, attitude and all his responses entirely relatable, and see no reason whatsoever to doubt what he says. I don't see what all the fuss is about. Maybe I'm naive. I tend to take people at their word, and assume that everyone else does too.

If someone says they are an arahant, I might say "thank you for sharing this with me" and then carry on with whatever I was doing. It's the same as someone saying "I stubbed my toe but it's okay now" - there's not really anything to do about it.

I find that thread quite distressing. And now I'm entertained by my distress. And now I am sad. Always so sad Freyr, always so sad.

I think that thread could have been far more helpful to all involved if not disrupted by irrelevant skepticism.

User1249x wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:18 am 3. The vast majority of people is filled to the brim with delusion, greed, anger and conceit and are to that extent guaranteed not to react adequately to any such claims
For some reason, I find this hard to believe, but I recognise it must be true. Thank you for all these points. Very, very helpful. They all make sense. I have taken notes.
User1249x wrote: Sat Jan 12, 2019 11:18 am Due to these circumstances talking about attainments is complicated.
hahahahahahahahaahahaha
I think Kevin had long since recanted, went back and forth between Theravada and Vajrayana, had some serious personal issues, etc.

The point being is that it is easy to delude oneself, especially without proper guidance.

And I don't think arahat's or sotapanna''s first priority would be to announce it on the web or to discuss how cool it it with other sotapannas. I would guess that spending a lot of time on the interwebs is probably a fairly good indication that one is nowhere near these stages.
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