Search found 815 matches

by Spiny O'Norman
Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: the great rebirth debate
Replies: 6108
Views: 464055

Re: the great rebirth debate

nowheat wrote: The views presented in the canon are unlikely to be super-accurate renderings of the actual beliefs of folks of the day.
Quite possibly. But for all we know the Buddha emphasized rebirth much more than the suttas suggest - we just don't know.

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:22 am
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma
Replies: 407
Views: 15871

Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Goofaholix wrote:Perhaps non-theist is better, though I'm not sure what it achieves.
Yes, and perhaps "non-theist" is covered by "agnostic"?

spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:21 am
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma
Replies: 407
Views: 15871

Re: Atheism is an Unskillful False Dhamma

Goofaholix wrote:The a- negates, it doesn't affirm, in this case it negates theism.
Yes, atheism implies disbelief while theism implies belief. Arguably both disbelief and belief are unskillful because they both involve attachment to views.

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:15 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: the great rebirth debate
Replies: 6108
Views: 464055

Re: the great rebirth debate

The only way to not have a view is to say "I don't know". spiny Hi, Spiny. Alternately, we can just dwell in emptiness abandoning all views. I guess for me saying "I don't know" is the first step to abandoning views. In the context of this debate, I personally have no idea whether rebirth occurs, t...
by Spiny O'Norman
Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:22 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: the great rebirth debate
Replies: 6108
Views: 464055

Re: the great rebirth debate

..... that right view can be conveyed without rebirth-talk at all (this conclusion is also borne out by MN 9 as well as others). But MN9 clearly describes how aging and death arise in dependence on birth, and how birth arises in dependence on the process of becoming in the 3 realms. "And what is ag...
by Spiny O'Norman
Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:13 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: the great rebirth debate
Replies: 6108
Views: 464055

Re: the great rebirth debate

Notron wrote:If the Buddha taught the absence of an ego (anatta), then what receives results of practice
This is a good question, but it's problematic even when considered across one lifetime.

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:07 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: the great rebirth debate
Replies: 6108
Views: 464055

Re: the great rebirth debate

The context of saying that "disbelief in rebirth is a view" is the secondary target; If we're talking about questions on which we're not currently certain then of course disbelief is a view. The same way that belief is a view. The only way to not have a view is to say "I don't know". spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:57 pm
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:So what's this "immediate contradiction"?
This is thoroughly addressed elsewhere, and it won't do to clutter this thread.
Well, let's discuss it in a more appropriate place - any suggestions?

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:55 pm
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Hi Spiny, What about the logical problems he raises in his critique? Can they be resolved? Frankly I don't think Brasington really understands the 3-lives model. Hmm, you haven't really answered my question. Not that you're obliged to, of course. The 3-lives model is applied to DO in forward, not c...
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:48 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: the great rebirth debate
Replies: 6108
Views: 464055

Re: the great rebirth debate

ancientbuddhism wrote:For some of us there is no 'view' about rebirth really, its just that the myth of rebirth doesn't inform practice.
You say the "myth" of rebirth, so presumably you don't believe in rebirth? That sounds like a view to me.

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:41 pm
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

daverupa wrote:
Spiny O'Norman wrote:The 3-lives model is at least consistent with the way the nidanas are described in the suttas.
No, it runs into immediate contradiction, as Nanavira has also pointed out. But of course, this is simply one of those intractable differences.
So what's this "immediate contradiction"?

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:40 pm
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

If you haven't seen it already, you may also be interested in Leigh Brasington's critique of the "three lives" model, which he sees as suffering from fatal logical problems. It seems to be an example of "I don't like what the suttas say, so I'll rewrite the offending sections and make it fit an int...
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:33 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "The Deathless" (amata)
Replies: 423
Views: 47595

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described "Do not say so, Ananda..." I'm talking about the way DO is described in the suttas, where in the cessation mode there is cessation of death following the cessation of birth. Given this it is logical to conclude that amata, the Deathle...
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:14 am
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

As I already tried to indicate, it doesn't matter what I believe. I accept that rebirth is a significant aspect of the received tradition, including the Suttapiṭaka. And this is a Theravāda discussion forum, the Buddhadhamma is more important than my opinions or your opinions or anyone else's opini...
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:10 am
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

If you haven't seen it already, you may also be interested in Leigh Brasington's critique of the "three lives" model, which he sees as suffering from fatal logical problems. The 3-lives model is at least consistent with the way the nidanas are described in the suttas. The psychological model of DO ...
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 10:01 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: "The Deathless" (amata)
Replies: 423
Views: 47595

Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

TMingyur wrote:"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.

Kind regards
It's possible, but I still don't see the objection to a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described in the suttas - when birth ceases, so does death.

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:59 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: the great rebirth debate
Replies: 6108
Views: 464055

Re: the great rebirth debate

Also I am very unconvinced when people ignore clear-as-clear-can-be phrases such as: " with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in ... " The suttas are filled with such material that cannot simply be a metaphor. I agree. I think agnosticism about rebirth is fine, what I struggle...
by Spiny O'Norman
Thu Mar 22, 2012 9:39 am
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: Human re-births
Replies: 21
Views: 1290

Re: Human re-births

vinasp wrote: In Buddhism it is always a matter of seeing and knowing directly and
for yourself, and not about believing.
Not in all schools of Buddhism. ;)

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:53 pm
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

Kenshou wrote: Remaining agnostic about rebirth does not necessarily imply ignoring and discounting the idea.
I'd go further and say that agnosticism about rebirth shouldn't imply ignoring and discounting the idea. Otherwise it's just cherry-picking disguised as neutrality.

Spiny
by Spiny O'Norman
Wed Mar 21, 2012 2:47 pm
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation
Replies: 137
Views: 5886

Re: can i achieve nirvana when i don't believe in Reincarnation

mikenz66 wrote:A truly agnostic stance would be:
  • "I don't really understand what suttas on such-and-such are getting at and/or whether to take certain passages literally, but I'll press on and see how it turns out."
That's pretty much where I am... ;)