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by Spiny Norman
Thu May 14, 2020 1:36 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

So when sense-consciousness (vinnana) ceases, what is the "wise consciousness" which remains? Consciousness not generated by ignorance but merely the natural undefiled element of consciousness, such as the consciousness of a Buddha. Anyway, time for bed. I trust i have explained this matter so many...
by Spiny Norman
Thu May 14, 2020 1:23 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

So with that neurological interpretation, how would you explain DO in reverse/cessation mode, eg "With the cessation of name&form, there is the cessation of consciousness... "? I do not recall referring to "name-form". I think there is no such thing as "name-form". I would explain when mind & body ...
by Spiny Norman
Thu May 14, 2020 11:50 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

Can these three different formulations be combined in a coherent way? Perhaps they can be (as I currently understand) There are even more types of expositions on Dependant Origination. Some of them can be found in Ahara Sutta(SN12.11), Cetana Sutta(SN12.38), Upadana Sutta(SN12.52) etc. What is the ...
by Spiny Norman
Thu May 14, 2020 11:40 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

Can these three different formulations be combined in a coherent way? They don't exist to be combined. 1. The original mutual nama-rupa version (in SN 12.65) is from Gotama's original exploration, where Gotama was examining consciousness as an element. 2. The 12-condition version is from the comple...
by Spiny Norman
Tue May 12, 2020 6:12 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

In the Loka Sutta, vinnana (sense-consciousness) arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form. The meeting of the three is contact. If you take DO as the different pairs standing together simultaneously (as the Sheaves of Reeds s...
by Spiny Norman
Tue May 12, 2020 5:09 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

In the Loka Sutta, vinnana (sense-consciousness) arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form. In most DO suttas, vinnana arises in dependence upon sankharas. Though there are different interpretations of what this involves. In a...
by Spiny Norman
Tue May 12, 2020 4:47 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

cappuccino wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:35 pm
Spiny Norman wrote: :focus:
we are on topic
It's my thread, and you're off-topic. Please don't hijack other people threads with your familiar axe-grinding.
by Spiny Norman
Tue May 12, 2020 4:34 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

cappuccino wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 4:32 pm
Pulsar wrote: Let me use an example, even a third grader might understand.
this teaching is more difficult


just assume you don't understand yet
:focus:
by Spiny Norman
Tue May 12, 2020 4:32 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

Spiny wrote "In the Loka Sutta, vinnana (sense-consciousness) arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form" Frigging great selection dear Spiny, sometimes you amaze me. Loka sutta basically goes into the aspects of how the world ...
by Spiny Norman
Tue May 12, 2020 4:29 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

cappuccino wrote:
Tue May 12, 2020 2:13 pm
Pulsar wrote: the sankharas stop, hence vinnana that is dependent on it. Ending of the cyclic samsara.
that's annihilation, rather than Nirvana
:focus:
by Spiny Norman
Tue May 12, 2020 4:27 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

In the Loka Sutta, vinnana (sense-consciousness) arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form. In most DO suttas, vinnana arises in dependence upon sankharas. Though there are different interpretations of what this involves. In a...
by Spiny Norman
Mon May 11, 2020 12:14 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

Re: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

DooDoot wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:57 am
Spiny Norman wrote:
Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 am
Can these three different formulations be combined in a coherent way?
Yes. Absolutely. The Buddha was coherent. However, it appears it cannot be combined based on certain incoherent views of D.O.
So how can these three formulations be combined in a coherent way? That was the question.
by Spiny Norman
Mon May 11, 2020 10:23 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations
Replies: 83
Views: 2370

The conditionality of vinnana in the suttas - different formulations

In the Loka Sutta, vinnana (sense-consciousness) arises in dependence upon sense-base and sense-object, eg eye-consciousness arises in dependence upon eye and form. In most DO suttas, vinnana arises in dependence upon sankharas. Though there are different interpretations of what this involves. In a ...
by Spiny Norman
Wed May 06, 2020 8:46 pm
Forum: Connections to Other Paths
Topic: So Nagarjuna purportedly demonstrated that arising and ceasing do not occur, ever...
Replies: 98
Views: 2600

Re: So Nagarjuna purportedly demonstrated that arising and ceasing do not occur, ever...

Greetings, I’m still not clear as to how you understand the falsity of nama-rupa? I'm not really sure how I can be much clearer. Doesn't the very fact that sankhata-dhammas are created by the nama-rupa/vinnana vortex highlight the artificially constructed nature of their experience? You've been sho...
by Spiny Norman
Mon May 04, 2020 10:46 am
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Bodily Fabrications
Replies: 48
Views: 1293

Re: Bodily Fabrications

it's sound and reasonable. Its not reasonable, as I provided evidence for. It contradicts all other Dhamma principles about perception, feeling, citta and their relationship. :hello: It doesn't contradict anything, and your "evidence" is off-topic and irrelevant to the point under discussion. Feeli...