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by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:59 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Agreed, but there are many occasions when discussion can be very fruitful, and nobody is suggesting that we do nothing but discussion. The Buddha often taught discursively and Socratically, and his teaching is intellectually brilliant. In particular, I think there is an important role for discussio...
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:10 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

I don't think something being unintelligible is beside the point. It is the point if it's what I want to post about, surely. By discussing things I don't understand, I hope to come to a better understanding. But a veteran poster like you should already knew that intellectual discussion could only g...
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:30 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Yes, I understand the theory, and know the suttas. My point - made a couple of pages back - is that it is nevertheless unintelligible. There is for me no conceivable pain which would not count as dukkha (which I think of as meaning "unsatisfactoriness", or somesuch) and conversely no dukkha which w...
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:54 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

No, I don't understand what that means. Are you saying that some aggregates were being assailed by severe pain, and those aggregates are not the Blessed One? If so, I don't see the how it deals with the unintelligibility of the difference between pain and suffering. Yes, that's exactly what I said....
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:25 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

No, I don't understand what that means. Are you saying that some aggregates were being assailed by severe pain, and those aggregates are not the Blessed One? If so, I don't see the how it deals with the unintelligibility of the difference between pain and suffering. Yes, that's exactly what I said....
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:31 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Sorry, you've lost me here. I don't think that an expression (i.e. a term or designation) is the same as that which it designates, but I'm not sure if that's what you mean. This is exactly why I asked you the question of whether the Bhagava is equated exactly to the Five Aggregates with that label,...
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:28 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

alfa wrote:So 'he was in pain but did not suffer' argument doesn't suffice.
Care to provide sutta references and backup literature for the claim above?
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:06 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Well, SN 4.13 says that the bearer of the pain was bhagavā, the Blessed One; the same one who "put an end to suffering and stress". It's not the job of the sutta to spoon-feed us the same info. over and over again. If one's genuinely interested in learning the Buddha's words, at the very least, one...
by santa100
Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:55 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

It might help if you were to state what you think the question is. You seem to have reformulated it in terms of what the Buddha's nature or status is, but the problem of intelligibility remains. Whatever we call the thing referred to in SN 4.13 passim which bears dukkhavedana - call it Five Aggrega...
by santa100
Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:41 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

And what's un-intelligible in a straight-forward logical question I've been asking: "if someone has transcended both self-view AND the residual odour of personal identity [ie. all notions of "I", "mine", and "myself"], who is there to bear dukkha, whether vedana or not?" There's nothing unintelligi...
by santa100
Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:10 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Yes, again that's a doctrinally coherent view which I don't question for a millisecond, but in terms of my own personal understanding it merely adds another factor to take on trust. Again, nothing wrong with that, of course, but it doesn't differentiate between the two types of stress, or pain, or ...
by santa100
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:52 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Yes, again that's a doctrinally coherent view which I don't question for a millisecond, but in terms of my own personal understanding it merely adds another factor to take on trust. Again, nothing wrong with that, of course, but it doesn't differentiate between the two types of stress, or pain, or ...
by santa100
Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:00 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Yes, I'm able to accept that as a propositional account of the situation, but in terms of intelligibility it just kicks the can further down the road. If there is some factor called stress, then how is it differentiated from the stress we experience when we are in great pain? I'd say the main diffe...
by santa100
Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:13 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

Specifically, about the difference between pain, and suffering; or (even more perplexingly) about the difference between dukkha and dukkhata, which obviously are formed from the same root. The above quote (SN 4.13) says that the Buddha was stricken by feelings that are (adjectivally) dukkhā. So if ...
by santa100
Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:08 pm
Forum: General Theravāda discussion
Topic: Karma is everything!
Replies: 76
Views: 732

Re: Karma is everything!

According to the above text , on the contrary , If an arhat is still subject to old age & death , then surely he is Not yet Free from suffering totally . That's why I asked the very first question: if an enlightened one has transcended all notions of "I", "mine", and "myself", who is there for suff...