Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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Alex123
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote: Fine, but I am not agruing free-will. I am arguing choice, albeit conditioned and conditiong choice, but choice nonetheless.
Full choice and free will are related. To be able to freely make a choice to do this or that is to have free will to chose this or that. If there is no free-will, then there is no possibility of free choice where one can choose whatever one wants independent of past conditionings. And if the choice is not independent of something, then how can it really be a free choice ?

Just because there are causes and conditions that determine the deliberation, the choice, the outcome, doesn't mean that there is freedom of will to chose independent of past conditioning.

tiltbillings wrote: Choice - that is, kamma - is conditioned and conditioning, which is to say, I can alter my condition by the choices I make, otherwise awakening would not be possdible.
How can I alter anything? What happens is due to impersonal causes and conditions, not due to some agency that can alter things.

tiltbillings wrote: If one accepts kamma as an actual teaching of the Buddha, and I wonder if you do, then how I choose to act will determine whether any of these conditions arise for me.
I accept kamma. But how one acts is determined by the presence or absence of 3 wholesome/unwholesome roots and all other past conditioning. A lustful person can't at that time simply determine and will not to be lustful. A peaceful person cannot just choose to be angry at that time. Buddha cannot ever become a Devadatta, to show an extreme case.

When there is deliberation, the outcome of deliberation (choice) is dependent on how much wisdom or ignorance there is, how strong or weak the defilements are, effect of other people, effect of "one's upringing", etc, etc . A wise person can't simply become ignorant, and ignorant person cannot just will to become wise.


Considering that the Buddha has said:
When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Where does it leave the door open for the arising of something not due to previous causes? And if everything (thoughts, ideas, beliefs, deliberation, choice, decision, etc) arises due to a cause - then how can it be free choice? How can any effect arise without a proper cause? It can't. So that quote teaches us that everything is due to causes and effects, and not due to Self that can freely choose.


All progress or lack of it. All putting the conditions to change, or not putting the conditions to change. All this arises due to a causes ("When this is, that is...When this isn't, that isn't"). This is very liberating to know that there is no one to blame, and no free entity to have greed or anger for.


With metta,

Alex
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Fine, but I am not arguing free-will. I am arguing choice, albeit conditioned and conditiong choice, but choice nonetheless.
Full choice and free will are related. To be able to freely make a choice to do this or that is to have free will to chose this or that. If there is no free-will, then there is no possibility of free choice where one can choose whatever one wants independent of past conditionings. And if the choice is not independent of something, then how can it really be a free choice ?
If you mean by free, free of being conditioned, I have repeatedly said that choice is conditioned and it is also conditioning. Are you reading what I am writing?
Just because there are causes and conditions that determine the deliberation, the choice, the outcome, doesn't mean that there is freedom of will to chose independent of past conditioning.
Did I say it was? Nope, and if you had been actually reading what I write you would know that I have said choice is conditioned.

tiltbillings wrote: Choice - that is, kamma - is conditioned and conditioning, which is to say, I can alter my condition by the choices I make, otherwise awakening would not be possdible.
How can I alter anything?
By the choices you make.
tiltbillings wrote: If one accepts kamma as an actual teaching of the Buddha, and I wonder if you do, then how I choose to act will determine whether any of these conditions arise for me.
I accept kamma. But how one acts is determined by the presence or absence of 3 wholesome/unwholesome roots and all other past conditioning. A lustful person can't at that time simply determine and will not to be lustful.
Did I say he could, but he can choose not to act on the lust.
When there is deliberation, the outcome of deliberation (choice) is dependent on how much wisdom or ignorance there is.
And what choices are made will determine is wisdom or ignorance is cultivated.
Considering that the Buddha has said:
When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Where does it leave the door open for the arising of something not due to previous causes?
Am I advocating something not conditioned by previous causes? Nope, as I have repeatedly said.
And if everything (thoughts, ideas, beliefs, deliberation, choice, decision, etc) arises due to a cause - then how can it be free choice? How can any effect arise without a proper cause? It can't. So that quote teaches us that everything is due to causes and effects, and not due to Self that can freely choose.
Am I advocating free - unconditioned - choice? No. Have not done and no need to do so.

All progress or lack of it. All putting the conditions to change, or not putting the conditions to change. All this arises due to a causes ("When this is, that is...When this isn't, that isn't"). This is very liberating to know that there is no one to blame, and no free entity to have greed or anger for.
Except it does not free you of the responsibility for you action you choose to make.

"This being is bound to samsara, karma [choice] is his means for going beyond."SN I, 38. How we choose determines whether ignorance or wisdom are cultivated, which is why we have the precepts, which are guidelines for choice, and we can choose to meditate, which is a way of cultivating insight, which of course alters our conditioning of ignorance. Choice, kamma, is the key to the Buddhist life. Damdifino what you are advocating.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

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tiltbillings wrote: If you mean by free, free of being conditioned, I have repeatedly said that choice is conditioned and it is also conditioning. Are you reading what I am writing?
Yes. But what you are saying sounds like you believe that there really is a choice that is free between X or Y. As if there was someOne who could really chose, rather then there being simply an impersonal cause-effect stream.
Did I say it was? Nope, and if you had been actually reading what I write you would know that I have said choice is conditioned.
To speak precisely, a conditioned choice is not really a choice as ordinary people believe it means.
By the choices you make.
Who or what makes? Choice is fully conditioned by causes, and not be Agent.

Unfortunately talk about conditioned (yet somehow free choice) is talking with an implicit self view that denies conditionality. Either conditions are responsible for what occurs, or the Self. If the set of conditions that caused X were to be repeated 100%, the effect would always be Y, and not in any way else. This denies possibility of a real choice.

Something that is conditioned, is not free.
How we choose determines whether ignorance or wisdom are cultivated, which is why we have the precepts, which are guidelines for choice, and we can choose to meditate, which is a way of cultivating insight, which of course alters our conditioning of ignorance. Choice, kamma, is the key to the Buddhist life. Damdifino what you are advocating.
And it is due to presence of avijja or wisdom that the choice is conditioned. An ignorant person doesn't even know that he is ignorant, much less know that he needs to do something or what to do. The "choice" comes from one's past conditioning and never randomly.

One needs to know the different outcomes of different actions, have enough wisdom, and have enough good causes to do the right thing. "My thoughts" are not my own, they are due to upbringing and past good/bad things developed. Kamma does happen, but it depends on its causes such as phassa (contact).


One can't chose to have right views or not. They are first heard from others and due to presence or absence of wisdom, rejected or accepted. I can't will and control things like "let me have right views and always do the right choices".

And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

"And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Wholesome or unwholesome actions do not occur due to a wish or choice, but due to roots present. Wholesome acts cannot occur if the current roots are unwholesome and unwholesome acts cannot occur if the current roots are wholesome. No free choice.
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: If you mean by free, free of being conditioned, I have repeatedly said that choice is conditioned and it is also conditioning. Are you reading what I am writing?
Yes. But what you are saying sounds like you believe that there really is a choice that is free between X or Y. As if there was someOne who could really chose, rather then there being simply an impersonal cause-effect stream.
Using conventional language, it may seem like that, but understanding what is behind the conventional language, there is no problem, and there is still choice.
Did I say it was? Nope, and if you had been actually reading what I write you would know that I have said choice is conditioned.
To speak precisely, a conditioned choice is not really a choice as ordinary people believe it means.
But we are talking here in a Dhamma context.
By the choices you make.
Who or what makes? Choice is fully conditioned by causes, and not be Agent.
Duh!! And the " impersonal cause-effect stream" generally know as Alex suffers or enjoys the consequences of the choices made.
Unfortunately talk about conditioned (yet somehow free choice) is talking with an implicit self view that denies conditionality. Either conditions are responsible for what occurs, or the Self. If the set of conditions that caused X were to be repeated 100%, the effect would always be Y, and not in any way else. This denies possibility of a real choice.
You keep putting word in my mouth which is very impolite, but then all these impersonal choices made you do it, or was it the devil that made you do it?

I am not advocating free choice. Choice is conditioned and conditioning. As for the 100% claim, you really do not know if that is true, but if it were true, then there would only a strict determinism and no awakening. The Buddha's teachings would be a lie.
Something that is conditioned, is not free.
Free as in unconditioned. Yes, I have said that choice is conditioned.
How we choose determines whether ignorance or wisdom are cultivated, which is why we have the precepts, which are guidelines for choice, and we can choose to meditate, which is a way of cultivating insight, which of course alters our conditioning of ignorance. Choice, kamma, is the key to the Buddhist life. Damdifino what you are advocating.
And it is due to presence of avijja or wisdom that the choice is conditioned. An ignorant person doesn't even know that he is ignorant, much less know that he needs to do something or what to do. The "choice" comes from one's past conditioning and never randomly.
Yeah, so? Nothing here that contravenes what I said.
One needs to know the different outcomes of different actions, have enough wisdom, and have enough good causes to do the right thing. "My thoughts" are not my own, they are due to upbringing and past good/bad things developed. Kamma does happen, but it depends on its causes such as phassa (contact).
And if one has made good choices in the past, then the conditions for hearing the Dhamma and acting upon it will come into play.
Wholesome or unwholesome actions do not occur due to a wish or choice, but due to roots present. Wholesome acts cannot occur if the current roots are unwholesome and unwholesome acts cannot occur if the current roots are wholesome. No free choice.
Wholesome and unwholse actions do come about because of choice, kamma. Where else would they come from?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

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tiltbillings wrote: Wholesome and unwholse actions do come about because of choice, kamma. Where else would they come from?
But the sutta states that they come due to present roots, the required causes for action. If there is unwholesome root, then action will only be unwholesome and never wholesome. If there is wholesome root, then the action can only be wholesome and never unwholesome. The wholesome action to "plant the causes for more wholesome roots in the future" depends on present wholesome roots and not on unwholesome roots.
And what is the root of the unwholesome? Greed is a root of the unwholesome; hate is a root of the unwholesome; delusion is a root of the unwholesome. This is called the root of the unwholesome.

"And what is the root of the wholesome? Non-greed is a root of the wholesome; non-hate is a root of the wholesome; non-delusion is a root of the wholesome. This is called the root of the wholesome.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .ntbb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications (saṅkhāra)...
Now from the remainderless fading and cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications (saṅkhāra)...
...
When this is, that is. From the arising of this comes the arising of that. When this isn't, that isn't. From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Fabrications (saṅkhāra) include reactions and is considered to be kamma. It is dependent on ignorance. When there is avijjā, then saṅkhāra will be made, no matter what. If there isn't avijjā, then saṅkhāra will not be made, no matter what.

The idea that this strict conditionality can be bypassed through choice or will or whatever, just adds to the Self View, it just adds more delusion, more unwholesome roots, more unwholesome resultant action, and makes liberation be further and further away.
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Wholesome and unwholse actions do come about because of choice, kamma. Where else would they come from?
But the sutta state that they come due to present roots, the required causes for action. If there is unwholesome root, then action will only be unwholesome. If there is wholesome root, then the action can only be wholesome. The wholesome action to "plant the causes for more wholesome roots in the future" depends on wholesome roots.
While all that is true that if I act badly that bad action has an unwholesome root, but in the real world what grouping of conditions is solely one thing or another, solely unwholesome or wholesome? There is a reason we do certain practices to cultivate wholesome roots and to attenuate the unwholesome. It is gounded in choice.
The idea that this strict conditionality can be bypassed through choice or will or whatever, just adds to the Self View, it just adds more delusion, and makes liberation be further away.
Then you are saying there is not a thing we can do to alter our conditioning, which makes the Buddha a liar, but fortunately the Buddha taught us that we can, indeed, alter our conditioning and that choice - kamma - is very much part of what we are and it is the tool we use.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

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tiltbillings wrote: While all that is true that if I act badly that bad action has an unwholesome root, but in the real world what grouping of conditions is solely one thing or another, solely unwholesome or wholesome? There is a reason we do certain practices to cultivate wholesome roots and to attenuate the unwholesome. It is gounded in choice.
During those moments when there are wholesome roots, the resultant action is always wholesome - never unwholesome. During those moments when there are unwholesome roots, the resultant action is always unwholesome - never wholesome.

The reason to do wholesome and wise things (like doing certain practices) is due to wholesome roots. The reason to do misguided practices is due to unwholesome roots.

The idea that this strict conditionality can be bypassed through choice or will or whatever, just adds to the Self View, it just adds more delusion, and makes liberation be further away.
Then you are saying there is not a thing we can do to alter our conditioning, which makes the Buddha a liar, but fortunately the Buddha taught us that we can, indeed, alter our conditioning and that choice - kamma - is very much part of what we are and it is the tool we use.

By listening to true Dhamma and considering it, more understanding grows. The wholesome root of wisdom becomes stronger, and that makes wholesome and wise actions appear more often and better and better. The voice of another IS one of the required conditions for changing the roots (for better or worse). But one cannot make oneself "let me believe in the Buddha" or "let me not believe the Buddha". One can't force oneself to believe the Buddha so much, that s/he becomes liberated by faith.


To alter our condition for the better, requires wholesome roots and never unwholesome roots. To alter our condition for the worse, requires unwholesome roots and never wholesome roots.
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: While all that is true that if I act badly that bad action has an unwholesome root, but in the real world what grouping of conditions is solely one thing or another, solely unwholesome or wholesome? There is a reason we do certain practices to cultivate wholesome roots and to attenuate the unwholesome. It is gounded in choice.
During those moments when there are wholesome roots, the resultant action is always wholesome - never unwholesome. During those moments when there are unwholesome roots, the resultant action is always unwholesome - never wholesome.

The reason to do wholesome and wise things (like doing certain practices) is due to wholesome roots. The reason to do misguided practices is due to unwholesome roots.
So? Doesn't change or contravene anything I have said.
By listening to true Dhamma and considering it, more understanding grows.
Listening and considering are choices. In other words, ways of altering one's conditioning in a wholsesome manner.
The voice of another IS one of the required conditions for changing the roots (for better or worse). But one cannot make oneself "let me believe in the Buddha" or "let me not believe the Buddha".
Voice of another. Says who?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

tiltbillings wrote:
The voice of another IS one of the required conditions for changing the roots (for better or worse). But one cannot make oneself "let me believe in the Buddha" or "let me not believe the Buddha".
Voice of another. Says who?
If you mean the Buddha's teaching, sure, but only to a point. It is an impetus. It is up to us to act in accordance with it, to cease to do the unwholesome, to cultivate the unwholesome and to purify our minds (Dhp 183). We have to act. No one can act for us.

Dhp 276. You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara. Striving, which is a choice, following the way the Buddha points to, choice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

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tiltbillings wrote: Listening and considering are choices. In other words, ways of altering one's conditioning in a wholsesome manner.
But listening requires that one considers that to be important. It requires a wholesome state of mind that prefer listening to the Buddha vs something else.

Not everyone has that opportunity. Most do not get to hear the Dhamma or cannot listen and understand it (ex: animals, or humans under deep delusion)

If at that moment unwholesome roots are present, one may not even want to listen - and listening occurs, understanding will not one may not understand.

tiltbillings wrote: Dhp 276. You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara.
If the roots are wholesome, the actions will be wholesome never unwholesome. If roots are unwholesome, then one may not want to do those things at all. Or if one does, those actions will be misguided and never correct. No alternative choices here.
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Listening and considering are choices. In other words, ways of altering one's conditioning in a wholsesome manner.
But listening requires that one considers that to be important. It requires a wholesome state of mind that prefer listening to the Buddha vs something else.
Which comes about because of the choices we made
tiltbillings wrote: Dhp 276. You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way. Those meditative ones who tread the path are released from the bonds of Mara.
If the roots are wholesome, the actions will be wholesome never unwholesome. If roots are unwholesome, then one may not want to do those things at all. Or if one does, those actions will be misguided never correct.
It all depends upon the choices we have made.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

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tiltbillings wrote:Which comes about because of the choices we made...It all depends upon the choices we have made.
And the choices that are made are determined by the roots from which they are based. If there is unwholesome root, then choice or action will only be unwholesome and never wholesome. If there is wholesome root, then the choice or action can only be wholesome and never unwholesome. The wholesome action to "plant the causes for more wholesome roots in the future" depends on present wholesome roots and not on unwholesome roots.

If the causes and conditions are for Choice X to be made, then only choice X can be made, never choice Y.
If the causes and conditions are for Choice Y to be made, then only choice Y can be made, never choice X.
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Which comes about because of the choices we made...It all depends upon the choices we have made.
And the choices that are made are determined by the roots from which they are based. If there is unwholesome root, then choice or action will only be unwholesome and never wholesome. If there is wholesome root, then the choice or action can only be wholesome and never unwholesome. The wholesome action to "plant the causes for more wholesome roots in the future" depends on present wholesome roots and not on unwholesome roots.

If the causes and conditions are for Choice X to be made, then only choice X can be made, never choice Y.
If the causes and conditions are for Choice Y to be made, then only choice Y can be made, never choice X.
Except, there is never just one "root" at play, which is why when one has a raging case of lust, one may make the choice not to act upon it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by Alex123 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Which comes about because of the choices we made...It all depends upon the choices we have made.
And the choices that are made are determined by the roots from which they are based. If there is unwholesome root, then choice or action will only be unwholesome and never wholesome. If there is wholesome root, then the choice or action can only be wholesome and never unwholesome. The wholesome action to "plant the causes for more wholesome roots in the future" depends on present wholesome roots and not on unwholesome roots.

If the causes and conditions are for Choice X to be made, then only choice X can be made, never choice Y.
If the causes and conditions are for Choice Y to be made, then only choice Y can be made, never choice X.
Except, there is never just one "root" at play, which is why when one has a raging case of lust, one may make the choice not to act upon it.
Still, that unwholesome root will only bring unwholesome action, never wholesome. And that wholesome root will only bring wholesome result, never unwholesome.

So mixture of roots does not negate the strict conditionality: "when this is, that is". The choice not to act upon lust it is due to a wholesome root, never unwholesome root. It is fully conditioned. The arising of lust is always due to unwholesome root, never wholesome root. It is fully conditioned.
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Re: Meditation, conditionality, and anatta

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
Still, that unwholesome root will only bring unwholesome action, never wholesome. And that wholesome root will only bring wholesome result, never unwholesome.

So mixture of roots does not negate the strict conditionality: "when this is, that is". The choice not to act upon lust it is due to a wholesome root, never unwholesome root. It is fully conditioned. The arising of lust is always due to unwholesome root, never wholesome root. It is fully conditioned.
Okay, but given the almost infinite complexity of the conditioning at play at any one time, things are never simple, nor is it a "strict conditionality."
"If one says that in whatever way a person performs a kammic action, in that very same way he will experience the result — in that case there will be no (possibility for a) religious life and no opportunity would appear for the complete ending of suffering.

"But if one says that a person who performs a kammic action (with a result) that is variably experienceable, will reap its results accordingly — in that case there will be (a possibility for) a religious life and an opportunity for making a complete end of suffering."
— AN 3.110
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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