the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Individual
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Individual » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:14 pm

Something to add: Nibbana is liberation. :)

If it were extinction, that would not be freedom because action would no longer be possible. If it were something like birth in a heavenly realm above the highest heavens of samsara, it would not be freedom because action would be required; you would have to be a sentient, acting being, subject to the laws that govern that realm.

With total liberation, action is possible but not required. It is liberation without a self to be liberated, neither action nor non-action (action and non-action do not apply). The distinction between annihilation and eternalism seems to develop from self-thinking, thinking in terms of gain and loss.
The best things in life aren't things.

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby rowyourboat » Tue Nov 09, 2010 3:21 pm

5Heaps

It strikes me that you are equating a physical 'particle' with a 'particle' of experiential phenoemena. It is very unwise to confuse the two. Science is about the former, the dhamma is about the latter.

There is a middle path between existence and non existence. Imagine a person believes that everything he sees on tv is real- ie- there are REAL people in the box. Now if someone told him there was NOTHING in the box that would not be true, as he experiences something. Through satipatthana and vipassana it becomes possible to see that there are only pixels lighting up - a meaningless dance at that. Not the riveting soap we thought was going on. Then we let go... This is the MIDDLE path.

with metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:15 pm

Individual wrote:Something to add: Nibbana is liberation. :)

If it were extinction, that would not be freedom because action would no longer be possible. If it were something like birth in a heavenly realm above the highest heavens of samsara, it would not be freedom because action would be required; you would have to be a sentient, acting being, subject to the laws that govern that realm.

With total liberation, action is possible but not required. It is liberation without a self to be liberated, neither action nor non-action (action and non-action do not apply). The distinction between annihilation and eternalism seems to develop from self-thinking, thinking in terms of gain and loss.



How can there be action when 5 aggregates have ceased and only bodily remains have left (which would decompose soon enough). ?

How can there be any action if sankhara-khandha has fully ceased?
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Individual
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Individual » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:22 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Individual wrote:Something to add: Nibbana is liberation. :)

If it were extinction, that would not be freedom because action would no longer be possible. If it were something like birth in a heavenly realm above the highest heavens of samsara, it would not be freedom because action would be required; you would have to be a sentient, acting being, subject to the laws that govern that realm.

With total liberation, action is possible but not required. It is liberation without a self to be liberated, neither action nor non-action (action and non-action do not apply). The distinction between annihilation and eternalism seems to develop from self-thinking, thinking in terms of gain and loss.



How can there be action when 5 aggregates have ceased and only bodily remains have left (which would decompose soon enough). ?

How can there be any action if sankhara-khandha has fully ceased?

Because it is action pertaining to freedom, not action pertaining to cause & effect.

Sankhara-khanda has not truly ceased. One merely regards it as empty: impermanent and not self. Therefore, it is called "ceased". Compared to an ordinary state, it is appropriately called cessation. It is distinguished, however, from whatever one might regard as "cessation." :)
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra

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Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby dhammapal » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:30 am

Majjhima 22 wrote:The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?' Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet.
<snip>
"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?'
From: Alagaddupama Sutta translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

So someone who attains parinibbana is free to go wherever they like?

Thanks / dhammapal.

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby Viscid » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:04 am

When I get parinibbana I'm going on a cruise
"What holds attention determines action." - William James

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby Kenshou » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:08 am

I think you're grabbing onto the wrong part of the metaphor.

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby cooran » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:21 am

Hello dhammapal, all,

This booklet by Bhikkhu Pesala will be of interest:

What is Nibbana?
Nibbāna is extremely subtle and hard to describe. It is not a place like heaven or paradise. The Arahants and Buddhas do not “enter” nibbāna when they die. Nibbāna is not annihilation of the self, since the so-called ‘self’ does not exist — though attaining nibbāna entails the annihilation of egoism. It is blissful, but there is no feeling associated with it. In fact, because there is no feeling in nibbāna it is truly peaceful. Only Noble Ones can know what nibbāna is really like, but we can understand fairly well by inference and constant practise of insight meditation.
Read more ......
Contents
Preface

Is cessation Nibbāna?

The Uncaused

Modes of Production

The Bliss of Nibbāna

Description of Nibbāna

The Realisation of Nibbāna

Where is Nibbāna?

How Can One Realise Nibbāna?

Key Points About the Way to Nibbāna

http://www.aimwell.org/Books/Pesala/Nib ... bbana.html

with metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:21 pm

dhammapal wrote:So someone who attains parinibbana is free to go wherever they like?


The Arahant no longer has the craving to "go wherever they like."

Those similes are dealing more with how the Arahant does not cling to views and is closely related to the Raft simile where the raft (path) is no longer clung to since it is no longer needed once arriving on "the other shore."

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby Alex123 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 5:50 pm

Hello Dhammapal,

The suttas clearly state that

1. Arahant/Tathagata is not found inside or outside of 5 aggregates. Thus nothing can eternally remain when five aggregates cease. SN 22.85-86

2. Self or what belongs to self is not found in truth or reality. MN22

3. There is no permanent possesion. MN22. Five aggregates are impermanent SN22.97

4. Nibbāna is cessation of becoming. AN10.7. bhavanirodho nibbāna. IMHO cessation of becoming is not some new becoming, such as becoming an infinite consciousness.

5. Wouldn’t gaining a permanent, eternal, not subject to change consciousness be considered acquiring (ūpadhi) Something? But many suttas clearly say that Nibbana is calming of all fabrications and relinquishing of ALL acquistions sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo – PTS A 4.423 (AN 9.36)


6. Five Aggregates cease and never reoccur when Parinibbāna happens. Thus what can remain and be oneself or possession of oneself? Why is there no sutta that says that at parinibbana 5 aggregates cease but some Consciousness remains?

7. There is no eternal and unchanging consciousness that transmigrates from sense base to sense base, much less from life to life. MN38. All consciousness is conditioned and dependently arisen.

8. “The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9 Such is the description of Nibbāna.

9. Consciousness cannot be without other aggregates (which cease in parinibbāna)

"Were someone to say, 'I will describe a coming, a going, a passing away, an arising, a growth, an increase, or a proliferation of consciousness apart from form, from feeling, from perception, from fabrications,' that would be impossible.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


What would be condition for consciousness in Nibbāna? OF what would it be aware? Wouldn’t its object of awareness be one of the aggregates? But then it would mean that something conditioned (aggregates) remain in Nibbāna…


Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ in DN11In DN11 quote if one looks carefully, there are two questions and two answers to
the questions of:
Q #1 Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing?
Q #2 Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to
an end?

Q1) Where do water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing?
A1) Consciousness without endless comparison, and radiant everywhere, Here
water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing.

Q2) Where are long & short, coarse & fine, fair & foul, name & form brought to
an end?
A2) Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul, name & form are all brought to
an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.'"

There is absolutely no reason to believe that Viññāṇa remains in Nibbāna, and
DN11 clearly states that consciousness ceases.


Remember that ALL things are dukkha. To posit something that remains eternally is only to posit an eternally existent dukkha and according to MN22 there isn’t anything that is permanent and everlasting not subject to change. The talk on ANY kind of existence in Nibbana betrays one's wish for eternal survival, even if it is in some unexplained form.

MN72 clearly states parinibbāna of Arahant is like flame going out. In fact the words extinguished is the same as word for Nibbāna. Just like
extinguished flame doesn't become the whole world, same is with Arahant.


The metaphors for nibbāna is a flame going out that is simply reckoned as 'out' (nibbuto)

"If the fire burning in front of you were to go out (nibbāyeyya), would you know that, 'This fire burning in front of me has gone out (nibbuto)'?"
"...yes..."
"And suppose someone were to ask you, 'This fire that has gone out in front of
you, in which direction from here has it gone? East? West? North? Or south?'
Thus asked, how would you reply?"

"That doesn't apply, Master Gotama. Any fire burning dependent on a sustenance of grass and timber, being unnourished — from having consumed that sustenance and not being offered any other — is classified simply as 'out' (unbound)."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

“What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"
"No, my friend."
"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"
"No, my friend."
"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.085.than.html
=
"there is no form... no feeling... no perception... there are no fabrications... there is no consciousness that is constant, lasting, eternal, not subject to change, that will stay just as it is as long as eternity."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.097.than.html
=
"Monks, you would do well to possess that possession, the possession of which would be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just like that for an eternity. But do you see that possession, the possession of which would be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just like that for an eternity?"
"No, lord."
"Very good, monks. I, too, do not envision a possession, the possession of which would be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change, that would stay just like that for an eternity.
"Monks, you would do well to cling to that clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair. But do you see a clinging to a doctrine of self, clinging to which there would not arise sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, & despair?"


"Monks, where there is a self, would there be [the thought,] 'belonging to my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Or, monks, where there is what belongs to self, would there be [the thought,] 'my self'?"
"Yes, lord."
"Monks, where a self or what belongs to self are not pinned down as a truth or reality, then the view-position — 'This cosmos is the self. After death this I will be constant, permanent, eternal, not subject to change. I will stay just like that for an eternity' — Isn't it utterly & completely a fool's teaching?"
"What else could it be, lord? It's utterly & completely a fool's teaching."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

=
[Sariputta] how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"
[Yamaka] "Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Yes, venerable sir, as I know the Teaching of the Blessed One, this consciousness transmigrates through existences, not anything else. [Buddha] Sàti, how is that consciousness? [Sati] Venerable sir, this uttering and feeling one, that reaps the results of actions good and evil done here and there. [Buddha:] Foolish man, to whom do you know me having preached this Teaching. Haven't I told, in various ways that consciousness is dependently arisen. Without a cause, there is no arising of consciousness. Yet, you foolish man, because of your wrong grasp, blame me, destroy yourself, and accumulate much demerit and that will be for your undoing and unpleasantness for a long time.
http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/ ... ta-e1.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' ‘etaṃ santaṃ etaṃ paṇītaṃ yadidaṃ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭinissaggo taṇhākkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbāna’nti.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby dhammapal » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:10 pm

Thirty-three synonyms for Nibbana:

1. The Unconditioned
2. The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
3. The Uninclined
4. The taintless
5. The truth
6. The other shore
7. The subtle
8. The very difficult to see
9. The unaging
10. The stable
11. The undisintegrating
12. The unmanifest
13. The unproliferated
14. The peaceful
15. The deathless
16. The sublime
17. The auspicious
18. The secure
19. The destruction of craving
20. The wonderful
21. The amazing
22. The unailing
23. The unailing state
24. The unafflicted
25. Dispassion
26. Purity
27. Freedom
28. Non attachment
29. The island
30. The shelter
31. The asylum
32. The refuge
33. The destination and the path leading to the destination
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... or_Nibbana
(from Samyutta Nikaya 43)

"Freedom" is on the list. "destination" is on the list but it doesn't say what happens upon reaching the destination.

With metta / dhammapal.

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:31 pm

"There is no life in the void. Only death."

The Buddha did NOT say this. Bonus if anyone knows who did.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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David N. Snyder
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:23 pm

kirk5a wrote:"There is no life in the void. Only death."

The Buddha did NOT say this. Bonus if anyone knows who did.


Sauron, from Lord of the Rings.

What is my prize??

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kirk5a
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:
kirk5a wrote:"There is no life in the void. Only death."

The Buddha did NOT say this. Bonus if anyone knows who did.


Sauron, from Lord of the Rings.

What is my prize??


hehe You knew without Googling it first right? Yeah "extinction"... more Sauron than Buddha methinks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G11prumD2pY

You get a hug and a mug :hug: :toast:
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:46 pm

kirk5a wrote:You get a hug and a mug :hug: :toast:


Cool. :hug:

:toast: :tongue:

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ground
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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby ground » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:16 am

It seems to be difficult to leave "cessation" just what the meaning of "cessation" is and not to fabricate it into something else.

Why is this?

Because there is no cessation yet.

Kind regards

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:42 am

TMingyur wrote:It seems to be difficult to leave "cessation" just what the meaning of "cessation" is and not to fabricate it into something else.

Why is this?

Because there is no cessation yet.

Kind regards

Cessation of what?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby ground » Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:01 am

kirk5a wrote:
TMingyur wrote:It seems to be difficult to leave "cessation" just what the meaning of "cessation" is and not to fabricate it into something else.

Why is this?

Because there is no cessation yet.

Kind regards

Cessation of what?


Afflictive obscurations.

Kind regards

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby kirk5a » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:08 pm

"When this nature disintegrates after having been destroyed by discernment, a nature marvelous far above and beyond any conventional reality will appear in full measure. At the same moment, we will see the harm of what is harmful and the benefits of what is beneficial. The awareness of release will appear as dhammo padipo -- the brightness of the Dhamma -- in full radiance, like the sun that, when unobscured by clouds, lets the world receive the full radiance of its light. The result is that the awareness of release appears plainly to the heart of the meditator the moment unawareness has disbanded."
- Venerable Acariya Maha Boowa Ñanasampanno
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... ey_Are.htm
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: Nibbana is Freedom Not Extinction

Postby ground » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:43 pm

Wow ... sounds very "tibetan"

Kind regards


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