the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

tiltbillings wrote:
For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.
You put down people who are neutral or don't believe in rebirth - but apart from the suttas, how are you going to prove it - blind faith?

.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

I know what I have done, since I am the one doing it.
"I dont like the sound of ..." isnt an argument
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
What??? The Buddha most certainly held a view, Right View, and the practice for us is to develop the same Right View, not to abandon all views.

The Buddha taught a view that leads out of all views. The Buddha-way is to abandon everything
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.

I afraid your going to have to decode a little
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.
You put down people who are neutral or don't believe in rebirth - but apart from the suttas, how are you going to prove it - blind faith?
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

Tex wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
tiltbillings wrote: Ive noticed that in all these posts you havent addressed any of the quotes I have posted that quite clearly show that

A) Views arise via clinging

B) The Buddha held no views

C) The practice is to abandon all views
What??? The Buddha most certainly held a view, Right View, and the practice for us is to develop the same Right View, not to abandon all views.


There is also this sutta

When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless.This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions.)

When this had been said, the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "We have each & every one expounded to you in line with our own positions. Now tell us what views you have."

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."

This is teaching that

A) Views arise because of clinging

B) The Buddhaway understands this and finds release via non-clinging

C) Non-adherence to views
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.

Which you have yet to prove in light of the various suttas that teach that view points, view stances and all "I" making should be abandoned as they arise from clinging
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.

I afraid your going to have to decode a little
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything.

No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way "literal" rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.

In other words, anti-rebirthers are making my point about corrupting the Buddha's teachings by wrongly grasping the the "wrongly reflecting" text they like so much to quote.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

tiltbillings wrote:
clw_uk wrote:
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything. No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.

I afraid your going to have to decode a little
Okay, but let us not forget that the Buddha taught that rebirth is what will happen if we do not let go, via insight, of everything.

No problem there, but wrongly mistaking wrongly reflecting on rebirth as the only way "literal" rebirth must be understood in the Pali suttas is clearly wrongly reflecting, which is the error of the anti-rebirthers.

In other words, anti-rebirthers are making my point about corrupting the Buddha's teachings by wrongly grasping the the "wrongly reflecting" text they like so much to quote.

How is it wrongly grasping?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.

Which you have yet to prove in light of the various suttas that teach that view points, view stances and all "I" making should be abandoned as they arise from clinging
I am not saying they should be abandoned. I am say that they do not constitute the only way every mention of rebirth must be understood, which something you claim, but have not even come near to proving.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Tex
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Tex »

clw_uk wrote:
This is teaching that

A) Views arise because of clinging

B) The Buddhaway understands this and finds release via non-clinging

C) Non-adherence to views

A) Does Right View arise because of clinging?

B) The "Buddhaway" understands clinging, sure, but it finds release via development of the Noble Eightfold Path, which includes Right View as perhaps its most important component. No one finds release by just abandoning views altogether.

C) Not clinging to views does not mean that you do not have any views.
Last edited by Tex on Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
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Ceisiwr
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Ceisiwr »

I am not saying they should be abandoned. I am say that they do not constitute the only way every mention of rebirth must be understood, which something you claim, but have not even come near to proving.

So you agree that the view of "Rebirth as a deva" should be abandoned? i.e. have no view of it?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:teachings by wrongly grasping the the "wrongly reflecting" text they like so much to quote.

How is it wrongly grasping?[/quote]The text in question is clearly talking about reflecting on past, present and future in terms of "I", which is hardly a basis for rejecting rebirth as being literal, but it is a basis for seeing the reflecting in terms of "I" as a problem. This pretty basic Dhamma.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

clw_uk wrote:
I am not saying they should be abandoned. I am say that they do not constitute the only way every mention of rebirth must be understood, which something you claim, but have not even come near to proving.

So you agree that the view of "Rebirth as a deva" should be abandoned? i.e. have no view of it?
Put that into is textual context and I'll happily deal with it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Aloka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Aloka »

tiltbillings wrote:
Aloka wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
For the Buddha rebirth was not a view.
You put down people who are neutral or don't believe in rebirth - but apart from the suttas, how are you going to prove it - blind faith?
I don't give a rat's patooty is you believe in rebirth or not, nor - for me - is this an issue as to whether or not rebirth is a fact. What is a fact - and what I am arguing here - is that the Buddha taught literal rebirth and I see no validity in trying to deny that.
My own position is neutral - and I don't give a rats patooty in general (whatever a patooty is) ...and luckily there are living Theravada teachers who say that to practice Dhamma it doesn't matter if one believes in rebirth or not.

These threads get sooo heavy - and its really not necessary ! :meditate:

Nearly bedtime in my part of the world. Goodnight .
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