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Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha - Dhamma Wheel

Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Each week we study and discuss a different sutta or Dhamma text

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Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:30 am

Snp 5.3 PTS: Sn 1043-1048
Punnaka-manava-puccha: Punnaka's Questions
translated from the Pali by John D. Ireland

[The Venerable Punnaka:]
"To him who is free from craving, who has seen the root (of things)[1] I have come with a question: for what reason did sages, warriors, brahmanas and other men prepare, here in this world, various sacrificial gifts for the gods (devata)? I ask the Lord this, let him tell me the answer."

[The Lord:]
"Whatever sages, warriors, brahmanas and other men, Punnaka, prepared various sacrificial gifts for the gods, they did so in the hope of this or that (future) existence, being induced by (the fact of) old age and decay."

[Punnaka:]
"By preparing various sacrificial gifts for the gods, being zealous in sacrificing, do they cross beyond birth and decay, Lord?"

[The Lord:]
"They hope and extol, pray and sacrifice for things of the senses, Punnaka. For the sake of such reward they pray. These devotees of sacrifice, infatuated by their passion for existence,[2] do not cross beyond birth and decay, I say."

[Punnaka:]
"If these devotees of sacrifice do not cross beyond birth and decay through sacrifice, Sir, then by what practice does one cross beyond birth and decay in this world of gods and men?"

[The Lord:]
"He who has comprehended in the world the here and the beyond, in whom there is no perturbation by anything in the world, who is calm, free from the smoldering fires,[3] untroubled and desireless — he has crossed beyond birth and decay, I say."

Notes

1. "The root of unwholesome actions, etc." (Comy). There are six roots or basic conditions in a person leading to the performance of unwholesome (unskilled) and wholesome (skilled) actions: greed, aversion, delusion, non-greed (renunciation, detachment), non-aversion (love) and non-delusion(wisdom). The Buddha has seen and understood this as it really is.

2. Or, "burning with lust for life."

3. The three "fires" of greed, aversion and delusion. This is a punning reference, also to be seen in the previous note, to the brahmana's sacrificial fire.

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Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:38 am

Snp 5.3 PTS: Sn 1043-1048
Punnaka-manava-puccha: Punnaka's Questions
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

[Punnaka:]
To the one unperturbed,
who has seen the root [of all things],
I have come with a question.
Because of what have many human seers
— noble warriors, brahmans —
offered sacrifices to devas here in the world? I ask you, O Blessed One.
Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
Those many human seers
— noble warriors, brahmans —
who have offered sacrifices to devas
here in the world,
Punnaka, hoping for more of this state of being,
offered their sacrifices
because of aging.

[Punnaka:]
Those many human seers
— noble warriors, brahmans —
who have offered sacrifices to devas
here in the world: Have they,
O Blessed One, heeding the path of sacrifice,
crossed over birth & aging?
I ask you, O Blessed One.
Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
They hoped for, liked,
longed for,
so sacrificed —
they longed for sensuality,
dependent on gain.
I tell you:
those who take on the yoke
of sacrifice,
impassioned with
the passion for becoming,
have not crossed over birth & aging.

[Punnaka:]
If those who take on the yoke of sacrifice
haven't crossed over the flood, dear sir,
then who in the world of beings divine & human
has crossed over birth & aging?
I ask you, O Blessed One.
Please tell me.

[The Buddha:]
He who has fathomed
the far & near in the world,
for whom there is nothing perturbing in the world —
his vices evaporated,
undesiring, untroubled,
at peace —
he, I tell you, has crossed over birth
& aging.

Note

AN 3.32 and AN 4.41 contain discussions of the last verse in this poem.

In AN 3.32, Ven. Ananda asks the Buddha, "Could it be that a monk could attain a concentration of such a sort such that, with regard to this conscious body, he would have no 'I'-making or 'mine'-making or obsession of conceit, such that with regard to all external themes [topics of concentration] he would have no 'I'-making or 'mine'-making or obsession of conceit, and that he would enter & remain in the awareness-release & discernment-release in which there is no 'I'-making or 'mine'-making or obsession of conceit?"

The Buddha answers that it is possible, and that such a concentration can be attained when one is percipient in this way: "This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all mental processes; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding." He then adds that it was in connection to this state of mind that he uttered the last verse in this poem.

In AN 4.41 , the Buddha identifies four ways of developing concentration: "There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to a pleasant abiding in the here & now. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the attainment of knowledge & vision. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness. There is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents." (For details, see AN 4.41) The Buddha then adds that he uttered the last verse of this poem in connection with these four ways of developing concentration.

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AN 3.32 Anandasutta - To venerable Ananda.

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:41 am

AN 3.32 Anandasutta - To venerable Ananda.
http://www.mahindarama.com/e-tipitaka/A ... -40.htm#32

32. Then venerable Ananda approached the Blessed One, worshipped sat on side and said thus to the Blessed One:- Venerable sir, is there a kind of concentration, in which there does not arise latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' in this sixfold conscious body, and externally on account of any signs. In which concentration, the mind is released and released through wisdom and in which one abides without the latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me'?

Ananda, there is such a concentration, in which there does not arise latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' in this sixfold conscious body, and externally on account of any signs. In which concentration one abides, the mind released and released through wisdom, without the latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' and one could abide in it.

Venerable sir, how is that concentration?

Ananda, here, it occurs to the bhikkhu:- This is peaceful, this is exalted, such as the appeasement of all determinations, giving up of all substratum, destruction of craving, non attachment, cessation and extinction. Ananda, in this manner there is to the bhikkhu a concentration in which there does not arise latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' in this sixfold conscious body, and externally on account of any signs. In this concentration, the mind is released and released through wisdom, one abides without the latent tendencies of measuring as `I be' and `it is to me' and in which one could abide.

Ananda, it was on account of this, that I had answered thus to Punnaka in the Parayanavagga:-

Destroying everything high and low, if he does not tremble,

Is appeased, emancipated, without confusion and desires,

I say, he has crossed birth and decay.

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Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:05 am


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AN 4.41 Samadhi Sutta: Concentration

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:40 am


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Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:21 am


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Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby cooran » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:15 am

Hello Mike,

I don’t have any discussion as such of this topic – just wanted to express appreciation of this thread, and the format of connected subject matter in a few suttas. Very interesting, and I found myself murmuring ‘’Oh yes – that’s right’’ and ‘’Hmmm, hadn’t connected that in just that way...’’.

Thanks! Glad your overseeing this forum, I don’t comment usually, but get a lot out of reading the threads.

With metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 9:29 am

Thanks Chris!

This final chapter of the Sn is particularly interesting with it's links to the various AN and SN suttas.

It's worth also checking out the F. Max Müller translation: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=uho ... &q&f=false

And Anandajoti Bhikkhu's translation and readings (it's always good to hear the Dhamma...)
http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... avaggo.pdf
http://www.archive.org/details/The-Way-to-the-Beyond
He also gives an analysis of the text here: http://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/T ... udy-01.htm

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Snp 5.3 Punnaka-manava-puccha

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Nov 01, 2010 8:24 am

Any comments on my interpretations up here: viewtopic.php?f=25&p=95712#p95695 before we start another Sutta?

:anjali:
Mike


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