something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Ven. Pan,
You are using an argument that has been debunked.
Zeno tried it a long time ago.
Geez, Alan, I think you need to reread Ven P's msg again, slowly, maybe outloud, using your finger running under each line as you read.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Actually, tilt, that is philosophy 301, In which I indulge my favorite students.
There is no reason to believe something cannot go from an entity to a non-entity--or from a stop to a start. But this has nothing whatsoever to do with anything we Buddhists need to contemplate.
No reason not to believe in unicorns. It may not have to do with what Buddhists need to "contemplate," but it has to do with the questionable comment Nanavira made. The question is not unlike the unmoved mover. How do you account for motion in something that has no motion; how do you account for the movement of time in relationship to what is not moving, that is time stopped.

Nanavira's "constant flux" and "something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval" are rather poor philosophy and rather poor Buddhism.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:But would that not mean that it for an instant does not change; for that instant it is changeless? If that is the case, then how does the changeless come to change?
the common view is that change is itself a functioning thing which acts on the physical or mental aggregate. this happens so quickly that things cant last for a second moment, but it is an "it" for a brief moment.
I am certainly positing that point of view./ It is not necessary to the suttas, not is it necessary to the Abhidhamma Pitaka texts.
Correction: I am certainly not positing that point of view.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

alan wrote:Since the tenor of the discussion has turned towards definitions, I'll go ahead and define.
"Bad Philosophy" to me means an argument that:
A) is based on a flawed premise, or,
B) contains illogical assumptions, or,
C) is irrational on it's face.
We shall see.
None of those apply in this case. Agree or don't--but there is no doubt Nanavira had important things to say, and he was a thinker well worth your time.
I spent time with his writings. My time is better spent elsewhere.
I certainly will not be throwing his book out the window.
Packed in a moldy cardboard box in the basement under several other boxes.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
5heaps
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:Correction: I am certainly not positing that point of view.
then how does a thing change? if not due to other, then due to itself?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Correction: I am certainly not positing that point of view.
then how does a thing change? if not due to other, then due to itself?
Which level do you want to take this question? How does a thing change(which are a terms of conventional designation)? Interdependence.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
5heaps
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Correction: I am certainly not positing that point of view.
then how does a thing change? if not due to other, then due to itself?
Which level do you want to take this question? How does a thing change(which are a terms of conventional designation)? Interdependence.
im interested in the subtlest nature of change pertaining to physical objects.

you say interdependence, so i guess this means change is produced by other objects right? then whats wrong with saying that things are momentary (ie. only last a moment)? thats how long it takes for objects to act upon the main object in order to change it.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

tiltbillings wrote:
5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Correction: I am certainly not positing that point of view.
then how does a thing change? if not due to other, then due to itself?
Which level do you want to take this question? How does a thing change(which are a terms of conventional designation)? Interdependence.
im interested in the subtlest nature of change pertaining to physical objects.
Knock yourself out, but rather than getting lost in papañca, start doing some vipassana retreats, start really watching, really seeing the rise and fall of the mind/body process. No need for rococo doctrinal structures. Just paying attention, moving in the deep course of wisdom, seeing there is but 5 heaps and in their own being, seeing their nature as it is, interdependent.
you say interdependence, so i guess this means change is produced by other objects right?
What does Nagarjuna mean when he talks about interdependence? The thing is you really do not pay attention to what I write. What did I say above in what you quoted?
then whats wrong with saying that things are momentary (ie. only last a moment)? thats how long it takes for objects to act upon the main object in order to change it.
At best "things" is a conventional designation. The problem with "things" is taking it beyond what it can carry.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
5heaps
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by 5heaps »

tiltbillings wrote:Knock yourself out, but rather than getting lost in papañca, start doing some vipassana retreats, start really watching, really seeing the rise and fall of the mind/body process. No need for rococo doctrinal structures.
unfortunately its the other way round. until one can think correctly there is not much use in trying to perform analysis under the influence of concentration.

after all, "hindus" are very good at observing momentariness and yet those highly sophisticated yogis of the past conjured up atman.
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Knock yourself out, but rather than getting lost in papañca, start doing some vipassana retreats, start really watching, really seeing the rise and fall of the mind/body process. No need for rococo doctrinal structures.
unfortunately its the other way round. until one can think correctly there is not much use in trying to perform analysis under the influence of concentration.
Nonesense. It is not a matter of analysis, which is a conceptual thing. That is Tibetan stuff that has absolutely no bearing here, and it also points to a deficiency in some quarters of Tibetan practice.
after all, "hindus" are very good at observing momentariness and yet those highly sophisticated yogis of the past conjured up atman.
You keep reading other stuff into the Theravada, but having no real understanding of the Theravada and seemingly no real intertest other than presenting your view of what the Theravada should be based upon the Tibetan tenet system, which has no bearing upon the Theravada whatsoever. Reginald Ray states in his Indestructible Truth:
. . . "Hinayana" refers to a critical but strictly limited set of views, practices, and results. The pre-Mahayana historical traditions such as the Theravada are far richer, more complex, and more profound than the definition of "Hinayana" would allow. ...The tern "Hinayana" is thus a stereotype that is useful in talking about a particular stage on the Tibetan Buddhist path, but it is really not appropriate to assume that the Tibetan definition of Hinayana identifies a venerable living tradition as the Theravada or any other historical school.." Page 240.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Paññāsikhara »

tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:

I'm not sure if it is this exactly which Tilt is referring to as "bad philosophy", but it is pretty bad.
I would have gotten to it eventually, but thanks for your very clear exposition.
Sorry if I stole your punchline... :tongue:
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

5heaps wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Knock yourself out, but rather than getting lost in papañca, start doing some vipassana retreats, start really watching, really seeing the rise and fall of the mind/body process. No need for rococo doctrinal structures.
unfortunately its the other way round. until one can think correctly there is not much use in trying to perform analysis under the influence of concentration.
The problem with thinking is that it is often an obstacle to direct observation, ie conceptualising is often a hindrance to seeing what is actually happening.
Conceptualising may have a place in later reflection on the insights we gain, but IMO it is not an appropriate activity during meditation practice.

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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

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tiltbillings wrote:. . . known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared . . . . - MNiii 25 Ven Bodhi's trans., MLDB 899. This give a slightly different take. Feelings "persist," but anyone who has attended to feelings with a concentrated/mindful mind knows they do not persist as an unchanging some-"thing."
I agree that does seem to be a good translation. ("Present" is similar to "stand.") How long does it stay present though?

I'd say that it varies... the earth is present for a very long time; this body is present for a shorter time; and thoughts are even shorter. It's not my fault if you confuse between all of these. (That's probably a sign of a poorly-developed dhamma vicaya.)

I never said anything about "unchanging"... I thought that anicca would've been assumed (on this forums, no less) about the so-called "stable thing-ness"; a dhamma (with the lower-case d) that is observed as standing, upaṭṭhahati, for x amount of time, before it falls away. This stablity is an observable dhamma, and the flux is also an observable dhamma. Both of these are anicca. (Which has nothing to do with flux.)

You can debate about the existence/non-existence of "total flux", the existence/non-existence of "total stability" as much as you'd like... much like a saṃsāra-bound, ordinary worldling would've compared to a tathāgata.
Shonin wrote:The perpetual flux of the physical world (which we know to be true from science) then has no bearing on the statements 'exist' and 'not exist'. An analogy would be the emergence of predictable 'Newtonian' physical laws and appearances at a macro level out of the instability and fundamental indeterminacy of the physical world at an atomic level (as revealed by quantum physics).
Science does not say that the physical world is in a perpetual flux. It's a fallacy to say that everything is in flux because of what's been developed in the quantum physics. Its model applies only to the behavior at an atomic level... in fact, it was developed (initially) to study just that.

Here are some quotes from Wikipedia:
Quantum mechanics, also known as quantum physics or quantum theory, is a branch of physics providing a mathematical description of much of the dual particle-like and wave-like behavior and interactions of energy and matter. It departs from classical mechanics primarily at the atomic and subatomic scales, the so-called quantum realm.
Quantum mechanics is essential to understand the behavior of systems at atomic length scales and smaller. For example, if classical mechanics governed the workings of an atom, electrons would rapidly travel towards and collide with the nucleus, making stable atoms impossible. However, in the natural world the electrons normally remain in an uncertain, non-deterministic "smeared" (wave–particle wave function) orbital path around or through the nucleus, defying classical electromagnetism.[7] Quantum mechanics was initially developed to provide a better explanation of the atom, especially the spectra of light emitted by different atomic species. The quantum theory of the atom was developed as an explanation for the electron's staying in its orbital, which could not be explained by Newton's laws of motion and by Maxwell's laws of classical electromagnetism.
Nothing about "flux" here... only a working description of what makes a stable atom.
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

beeblebrox wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:. . . known to him those states arose, known they were present, known they disappeared . . . . - MNiii 25 Ven Bodhi's trans., MLDB 899. This give a slightly different take. Feelings "persist," but anyone who has attended to feelings with a concentrated/mindful mind knows they do not persist as an unchanging some-"thing."
I agree that does seem to be a good translation. ("Present" is similar to "stand.") How long does it stay present though?

I'd say that it varies... the earth is present for a very long time; this body is present for a shorter time; and thoughts are even shorter. It's not my fault if you confuse between all of these. (That's probably a sign of a poorly-developed dhamma vicaya.)
Ooooh, "It's not my fault if you confuse between all of these. (That's probably a sign of a poorly-developed dhamma vicaya.)" An ad hom. Goodness.
I never said anything about "unchanging"
I did not say you did, but Nanavira did and that is what I am addressing, thus the title of this thread.
... I thought that anicca would've been assumed (on this forums, no less) about the so-called "stable thing-ness"; a dhamma (with the lower-case d) that is observed as standing, upaṭṭhahati, for x amount of time, before it falls away. This stablity is an observable dhamma, and the flux is also an observable dhamma. Both of these are anicca. (Which has nothing to do with flux.)
Damdifino what you mean by “flux.” The reality is, of course, a “standing” dhamma is not unchanging even while “standing.”
You can debate about the existence/non-existence of "total flux", the existence/non-existence of "total stability" as much as you'd like... much like a saṃsāra-bound, ordinary worldling would've compared to a tathāgata.
Ooh, another snap. I do not subscribe to the cartoon notion of “total flux.” It is a straw-man notion. The question I have what does the supposed “endures unchanged for at least a certain interval of time” actually mean.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: something endures unchanged for at least a certain interval

Post by tiltbillings »

Moderator note: Off topic stuff is being removed. Discussions of the nature of definitions can be pursued in another thread, please.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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