the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Retro, Nana, Tilt, all,
‘‘Kiñca, bhikkhave, atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ, yamahaṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi? Rūpaṃ, bhikkhave, aniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipariṇāmadhammaṃ atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ; ahampi taṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi. Vedanā aniccā…pe… viññāṇaṃ aniccaṃ dukkhaṃ vipariṇāmadhammaṃ atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ; ahampi taṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi. Idaṃ kho, bhikkhave, atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ; ahampi taṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi’’.
PTS S 3.138
The Buddha has said that 5 aggregates "atthī"
atthi = to be; to exist.


How would Aggregates have inherent existence or simply "are" alter the fact that:
1) Parinibbāna is cessation of all Dukkha
2) Parinibbāna is final cessation and no rearising of 5 aggregates?
3) There isn't anything (awareness, experiencing, knowing, willing, etc) that exists in parinibbāna.


retrofuturist wrote: I acknowledge Bhikkhu Bodhi is a good translator, but he does translate in such a way as to support his world view...
He translated what is found there. Idaṃ kho, bhikkhave, atthisammataṃ loke paṇḍitānaṃ; ahampi taṃ ‘atthī’ti vadāmi’’.
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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

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tiltbillings wrote:I would only repeat what the texts themselves say. Don't try to put words into my mouth, please.
And what do the text say to remain after Parinibbāna?

With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere
bodily remains will be left
." - SN12.51(1).
No talk about "luminious unestablished consciousness", the eternal Citta, the Ground of all Being... To posit anything continuing in or after parinibbāna would contradict the texts. With metta,

Please answer my other questions

Again, lets for the sake of discussion, say that I have meant that 5 aggregates, either:
A)have "true, inherent existence" (sabhāvasiddhi)"
B) Have only experiential, existence/functionality, they are (Atthi).

I prefer to the B option and so says the Buddha.


How would A or B meaning alter the fact that:1) Parinibbāna is cessation of all Dukkha
2) Parinibbāna is final cessation and no rearising of 5 aggregates?
3) There isn't anything (awareness, experiencing, knowing, willing, etc) that exists in parinibbāna.


Please forgive me, but it sounds to me as if some are trying to justify some sort of survival, of parinibbāna being some form of experience, awareness, existence. Also some arguments put forth here seem to be either trying to obfuscate the issue or to take it aside.

Alex
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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Alex123 wrote:No talk about "luminious unestablished consciousness", the eternal Citta, the Ground of all Being... To posit anything continuing in or after parinibbāna would contradict the texts.
Golly... talk about putting words in people's mouths. Is this really what you think people are positing, Alex?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I would only repeat what the texts themselves say. Don't try to put words into my mouth, please.
And what do the text say to remain after Parinibbana?
Which is an inapproariate question:

Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"What wise man here would seek to define
An immeasurable one (i.e. arahant) by taking his measure?
He who would measure an immeasurable one
Must be, I think, an obstructed moron."
- SN I 149

With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere
bodily remains will be left
." - SN12.51(1).
No talk about "luminious unestablished consciousness", the eternal Citta, the Ground of all Being... To posit anything continuing in or after parinibbāna would contradict the texts. With metta,

Alex
Not from me, you are not going to hear any of that. But you seem to want to measure the tathagata by telling us what is not there, whatever "there" is. The point is, there is no measure that is appropriate.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Shonin »

tiltbillings wrote:Not from me, you are not going to hear any of that. But you seem to want to measure the tathagata by telling us what is not there, whatever "there" is. The point is, there is no measure that is appropriate.
I think you hit the nail on the head there (although it's a nail that seems to have received a number of solid hits already).
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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Tilt, Retro, Nana, all,

Please answer my fair questions. They were either ignored or discussion went aside.
Since a tathagata, even when actually present, is incomprehensible, it is inept to say of him – of the Uttermost Person, the Supernal Person, the Attainer of the Supernal – that after death the tathagata is, or is not, or both is and is not, or neither is nor is not SN III 118. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... .wlsh.html
All the Yamaka/Anurradha sutta states is that "A Tathagata is not found here and now as truth or reality" (diṭṭheva dhamme saccato thetato tathāgate anupalabbhiyamāne) thus how can you say that he is Annihilated. This has been my position all along. With this, of course the tathagata "is immeasurable". There isn't any Self entity to measure and there isn't anything held as "I, ME, Mine" to measure Him by.

So when 5 aggregates cease, it is not an annihilation of an existing being. Do you understand this?
All that ceases is just stress that ceases.
There are 5 aggregates not 6, and they all cease without rearising.
Exactly with what point were we disagreeing relevant to the topic being discussed?

[Sariputta] how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"

[Yamaka] "Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by 5heaps »

Ñāṇa wrote:I'm rejecting the notion that any dhamma-s have true, inherent existence (sabhāvasiddhi). I'm suggesting that it's in keeping with the Pāḷi suttas to understand all dhamma-s as mere nominal designations (paññattimatta). In this way we can employ the teachings skillfully without succumbing to metaphysical speculation.
particles for example dont exist? collections of particles dont exist?
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Sobeh »

5heaps wrote:particles for example dont exist? collections of particles dont exist?
That's ontology, which is not the Dhamma.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Nyana »

5heaps wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:I'm rejecting the notion that any dhamma-s have true, inherent existence (sabhāvasiddhi). I'm suggesting that it's in keeping with the Pāḷi suttas to understand all dhamma-s as mere nominal designations (paññattimatta). In this way we can employ the teachings skillfully without succumbing to metaphysical speculation.
particles for example dont exist? collections of particles dont exist?
Hi 5heaps,

Where are "particles" ever mentioned in the Pāḷi suttas? And even more to the point: What bearing does speculating about the existence of particles have on liberation?

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:All the Yamaka/Anurradha sutta states is that "A Tathagata is not found here and now as truth or reality" (diṭṭheva dhamme saccato thetato tathāgate anupalabbhiyamāne)....
Hi Alex,

That is all that needs stating.

Sn 3.12 Dvayatānupassanā Sutta:
  • Entrenched in name and form,
    They conceive that “This is true.”

    In whatever way (worldlings) conceive it,
    It turns out other than that.
    For that is what is false about it.
    Whatever is transitory certainly has a false nature.

    But nibbāna does not have a false nature.
    That the noble ones truly know.
    Through fully comprehending the truth,
    They are without hunger, quenched.
Ud 3.10 (Ud 32) Loka Sutta:
  • This anguished world,
    Afflicted by contact,
    Speaks of a disease as self.
    By whatever terms it conceives of (anything),
    It turns out other than that.
    Although becoming otherwise, the world is held by existence,
    Afflicted by existence, yet delights in that very existence.
    Where there is delight, there is fear.
    What it fears is unsatisfactory.
    This holy life is lived for the abandoning of that existence.

    Whatever ascetics or brahmans say that emancipation from existence is by means of existence, all of them are not liberated from existence, I say.

    And whatever ascetics or brahmans say that escape from existence is by means of non-existence, all of them have not escaped from existence, I say.
All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by 5heaps »

Ñāṇa wrote:Where are "particles" ever mentioned in the Pāḷi suttas?
in other words the elements, or any time you talk about form.

are you saying the parts of form are concepts, or are you saying the collections of form are concepts?
Sobeh wrote:That's ontology, which is not the Dhamma.
whats your reason. it cant be "because the Buddha never spoke of them". on the other hand i can say "they are dharma, because the Buddha taught them".
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Kenshou »

Are you saying that you think of the "Elements" as something akin to fundamental particles?
5heaps
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by 5heaps »

Kenshou wrote:Are you saying that you think of the "Elements" as something akin to fundamental particles?
its a common notion
A Japanese man has been arrested on suspicion of writing a computer virus that destroys and replaces files on a victim PC with manga images of squid, octopuses and sea urchins. Masato Nakatsuji, 27, of Izumisano, Osaka Prefecture, was quoted as telling police: "I wanted to see how much my computer programming skills had improved since the last time I was arrested."
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Kenshou »

At risk of hijacking the thread... what's the evidence for that?
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Sobeh »

5heaps wrote:
Kenshou wrote:Are you saying that you think of the "Elements" as something akin to fundamental particles?
its a common notion
It's a sloppy generalization between two concepts developed to explain very different phenomena. Common or not, the notion is wholly flawed. If you wish to speak of elements (dhatu) at all, I think referring to Suttas is sufficient; recourse to scientific ontologies is simply inappropriate.
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