Bad resources

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Vepacitta
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Vepacitta »

Personally, I can't stand Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh - - 'Christo-Buddhism' imo. I've bitched and/or moaned about the good Venerable before here on Dhamma Wheel. I feel he tries to mind-meld Buddhist principles into Christianity to make it more 'palatable' for westerners. His concept of 'inter-is-ness' sounds to me like a gooshy-we're-all-one love fest.

But that's just me.

I'm also no van of Ven. Pema Chodron - here's some excerpts from an interview where she shares her thoughts on Trungpa Rinpoche - a notorious personage.

Tricycle: Stories of Trungpa Rinpoche's sexual encounters with students still upset a lot of people. Have they ever upset you?

Pema Chodron: No. But he upset me. He upset me a lot. I couldn't con him, and that was uncomfortable. But it was exactly what I needed. Sometimes, in certain situations, I can see how I'm a con artist, and I can see how I'm just trying to make everything pretty and smooth, and all I have to do is think of Rinpoche and I get honest. He has the effect on me of relentlessly—in a dedicated way—keeping me honest. And that's not always comfortable.

Tricycle: How did he respond to your choice of celibacy?

Pema Chodron: He encouraged me to be very strict with my vows.

Tricycle:In recent years women have become more articulate about sexism. And we know more today about the prevalence of child abuse and about how many people come into dharma really hurting. If you knew ten years ago what you know today, would you have been so optimistic about Trungpa Rinpoche and his sexuality? Would you have wanted some of the women you've been working with to study with him, given their histories of sexual abuse?

Pema Chodron: I would have said, You know he loves women, he's very passionate, and has a lot of relationships with women, and that might be part of it if you get involved with him, and you should read all his books, go to all his talks, and actually see if you can get close to him. And you should do that knowing you might get an invitation to sleep with him, so don't be naive about that, and don't think you have to do it, or don't have to do it. But you have to decide for yourself who you think this guy is.

Tricycle:Would you say that the intention behind this unconventional behavior, including his sexual exploits and his drinking, was to help others?

Pema Chodron: As the years went on, I felt everything he did was to help others. But I would also say now that maybe my understanding has gone even deeper, and it feels more to the point to say I don't know. I don't know what he was doing. I know he changed my life. I know I love him. But I don«t know who he was. And maybe he wasn't doing things to help everyone, but he sure helped me. I learned something from him. But who was that masked man?



Someone's who's this daft and dizzy - I don't like and I don't recommend to anyone.

Not a big fan of D. Suzuki either.

We take firm stances here on Mt. Meru! :jedi:

V.
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texastheravadin
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Re: Bad resources

Post by texastheravadin »

Vepacitta wrote:Personally, I can't stand Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh - - 'Christo-Buddhism' imo. I've bitched and/or moaned about the good Venerable before here on Dhamma Wheel. I feel he tries to mind-meld Buddhist principles into Christianity to make it more 'palatable' for westerners. His concept of 'inter-is-ness' sounds to me like a gooshy-we're-all-one love fest.

But that's just me.

I'm also no van of Ven. Pema Chodron - here's some excerpts from an interview where she shares her thoughts on Trungpa Rinpoche - a notorious personage.

Tricycle: Stories of Trungpa Rinpoche's sexual encounters with students still upset a lot of people. Have they ever upset you?

Pema Chodron: No. But he upset me. He upset me a lot. I couldn't con him, and that was uncomfortable. But it was exactly what I needed. Sometimes, in certain situations, I can see how I'm a con artist, and I can see how I'm just trying to make everything pretty and smooth, and all I have to do is think of Rinpoche and I get honest. He has the effect on me of relentlessly—in a dedicated way—keeping me honest. And that's not always comfortable.

Tricycle: How did he respond to your choice of celibacy?

Pema Chodron: He encouraged me to be very strict with my vows.

Tricycle:In recent years women have become more articulate about sexism. And we know more today about the prevalence of child abuse and about how many people come into dharma really hurting. If you knew ten years ago what you know today, would you have been so optimistic about Trungpa Rinpoche and his sexuality? Would you have wanted some of the women you've been working with to study with him, given their histories of sexual abuse?

Pema Chodron: I would have said, You know he loves women, he's very passionate, and has a lot of relationships with women, and that might be part of it if you get involved with him, and you should read all his books, go to all his talks, and actually see if you can get close to him. And you should do that knowing you might get an invitation to sleep with him, so don't be naive about that, and don't think you have to do it, or don't have to do it. But you have to decide for yourself who you think this guy is.

Tricycle:Would you say that the intention behind this unconventional behavior, including his sexual exploits and his drinking, was to help others?

Pema Chodron: As the years went on, I felt everything he did was to help others. But I would also say now that maybe my understanding has gone even deeper, and it feels more to the point to say I don't know. I don't know what he was doing. I know he changed my life. I know I love him. But I don«t know who he was. And maybe he wasn't doing things to help everyone, but he sure helped me. I learned something from him. But who was that masked man?



Someone's who's this daft and dizzy - I don't like and I don't recommend to anyone.

Not a big fan of D. Suzuki either.

We take firm stances here on Mt. Meru! :jedi:

V.

THANK YOU!!!!

I cannot tolerate Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh either, nor can I stomach any writer who attempts to fuse disparate religious traditions together as if there's no difference at all. I am not anti-Christian or anti anything, but there are significant differences between Buddhism and other religions, and to assume that Buddha and Jesus would agree on everything is naive.

At first, I found books by Hanh to be quite moving. I still think Hanh's Understanding the Heart of Wisdom is a great book on the Heart Sutra. But as I inspect his work closer I just can't help but see his books as mushy, airy New Age dreck. My rule of thumb is that if you go to your local bookstore and see an entire shelf dedicated to an author (like Hanh), then ninety percent of their assembly-line style books are probably no good.

Also, once you go on Oprah, you've lost me forever.

I don't care for Stephen Batchelor either. I thought Buddhism Without Beliefs was a decent read at first, but after actually trying to study some of the Tipitaka for myself, it's obvious he's become more and more interested in reinterpreting Buddhism to fit his materialistic worldview. I glanced through is Confessions of A Buddhist Atheist...he basically has Buddha parroting his own agnostic standpoints on concepts like kamma and rebirth.

I also became sick to my stomach when I saw that Deepak Chopra had published a "biography" of Buddha.

:anjali:

Josh
"Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed." — AN 11.12
Laurens
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Laurens »

alan wrote: P.S. I threw it out the window a few years ago, so please don't ask my to quote what it was that bugged me.
Why throw a book out of the window? Even if you disagree with it, there is no use destroying it, the best thing to do if you disagree with a book is to read it and analyse why you disagree with it. To destroy a book is to destroy knowledge, whether or not you agree with it, something can be learned from any book.

Besides its littering...
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
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Dan74
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Dan74 »

a dosa-fest...

I guess it can be good to get it out of the system :shrug:
_/|\_
Nyana
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Nyana »

Vepacitta wrote:Someone's who's this daft and dizzy - I don't like and I don't recommend to anyone.
Hi V,

Maybe Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna aren't your cup of tea, and that's fine, but there's simply no good reason to call someone down -- especially an ordained monastic -- whom you obviously know nothing about. Ven. Chödrön is a strong, clear minded, articulate bhikṣuṇī.

All the best,

Geoff
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Vepacitta
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Vepacitta »

Nana - a person like that - who can barely tell the difference between right and wrong - who cannot even admit that the behaviour of her teacher was morally reprehensible - who has said in one of her talks that I picked up at the local library "well, I can't even say what's right or wrong ... " is not - in my opinion - a very sorted out person.

How did I come to this conclusion about her - by doing a lot of reading - listening - and not liking what I saw. I look at people's actions and words - not their robes.

Just because someone is an ordained religious (of whatever religion) doesn't mean that one cannot voice their opinion about them - strongly. That sort of thinking has led to the vilest abuses of the populace by persons of various religious orders throughout history.

V.
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Nyana
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Nyana »

Vepacitta wrote:Nana - a person like that - who can barely tell the difference between right and wrong
Whatever Trungpa Rinpoche may or may not have done is his responsibility. It's presumptuous to say that Ani Pema "can barely tell the difference between right and wrong."

All the best,

Geoff
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Vepacitta
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Vepacitta »

It's presumptuous to tell me that I cannot express my opinion or to imply that my having an opinion and expressing it is presumptuous.

V.
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alan
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Re: Bad resources

Post by alan »

Rock on, V.
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Re: Bad resources

Post by alan »

Throwing out Batcheler's book is not littering. It's household improvement.
Nyana
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Nyana »

Vepacitta wrote:It's presumptuous to tell me that I cannot express my opinion or to imply that my having an opinion and expressing it is presumptuous.
Hi V,

I'm not denying you your opinion or your right of expression. I just don't think that in this case your opinion is all that accurate. That's my opinion. And the basis for my opinion is this: After Trungpa's death Ani Pema worked for many years to try to build up a practical foundation of personal responsibility in a pretty chaotic community. It was a thankless situation to put it mildly. Other people may very well have thrown their hands in the air and walked away from the whole thing. She didn't. And in time other people began to benefit from what she herself had learned along the way. Her message isn't perfect. Fortunately it doesn't have to be. In fact, a big part of her teaching has been about learning to face the "imperfections" of this messy thing we call our life. And face them with an open heart and a courageous mind -- not as a naïve abstraction -- but as a real, living, human heart and mind. This is where development happens. Right here. There's really no other way.

All the best,

Geoff
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Sanghamitta »

Well said Nana...whatever ones own reservation concerning Vajrayana, and mine are profound..It cant be denied that Pema Chodren is a teacher of great wisdom and life experience.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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Vepacitta
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Vepacitta »

Nana -

You should have spoken to me as this way in the first place instead of trying to shut me up and bully me. Your tone was not appreciated.

That being said - I still am extremely under impressed by Pema Chodron and I stand by those words. If a teacher has what I deem to be no moral ground - then there is nothing there - and not in a good way.

From Mt. Meru,

V.

NB - if you feel the need to keep this up about Ven Chodron - pm me - don't take up the thread with this.
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Re: Bad resources

Post by Viriya »

While not a dhamma book, I didn't enjoy Children Who Have Lived Before, by Trutz Hardo. It was pure recycled Stevenson...but the absolute worst of Stevenson, not even the tolerable aspects of his 'research'...in poor English and I have to hide it whenever I have friends come round because I'd rather them not see that offense on my bookshelf. I wouldn't give it away because I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Maybe it will make good compost...
I'm not very good at right speech, although I try, so please guide and correct me if necessary so I don't make bad kamma for myself and cause others to be annoyed. (=
alan
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Re: Bad resources

Post by alan »

Have to stand with V here.
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