the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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retrofuturist
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Gabe,

I understand what you mean - the abstracted structural principle remains true in the universe for (unenlightened) sentient beings.

When Alex asked, "Are you saying that something remains after parinibbāna?", I'm pretty sure he was asking in terms of the "continuity" of the "person".

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Vepacitta wrote:I think people should think twice before they accuse others of having pernicious views ...

No one on this thread is the ultimate expositor of Buddha-Dhamma.

From your cranky neighbourhood Asura,

V.

NB - and yes, even Arahants can experience the 'blow-back' from past kamma - some of which is unpleasant - but they don't attach to it as a 'self' - unlike you or I would. But, using conventional speech - which is certified as okely dokely by the Tathagata himself to speak in - the 'Arahant' - 'him' or 'herself' experiences that vipaka-kamma.

The Buddha also felt pain - read the parinibbana sutta - 'he' was in 'agony' - why? he had a body and he was quite ill. But he didn't attach to it - unlike you or I probably would. It was just 'the felt' of the heaps - not 'O Christ, my guts are killing me - why me?'

Realisation of nibbana doesn't mean one is 'super-monk' or 'super-monketta'

Crankily yours,

Vepacitta Asura :x
Thank you for your criticism Vepscitta. I did think twice about it and chose to do it anyway. It was out of concern and I know I am not the "ultimate expositor of Buddha-Dhamma". My purpose is not to offend.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Gabe,

I understand what you mean - the abstracted structural principle remains true in the universe for (unenlightened) sentient beings.

When Alex asked, "Are you saying that something remains after parinibbāna?", I'm pretty sure he was asking in terms of the "continuity" of the "person".

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes I am pretty sure he was asking in those terms as well. However, this is no ordinary person. This is a person who's personality is in perfect alignment with Paṭicca-samuppāda. So much so that the only way to have any idea of that personality and its "continuity" is to also know and see Paṭicca-samuppāda for yourself. It is my opinion that the Buddha wanted the terms which discuss his "continuity" to be dealt with in this manner.

I am happy at the thought. :bow:

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Asura-girl!
Vepacitta wrote:NB - and yes, even Arahants can experience the 'blow-back' from past kamma - some of which is unpleasant - but they don't attach to it as a 'self' - unlike you or I would. But, using conventional speech - which is certified as okely dokely by the Tathagata himself to speak in - the 'Arahant' - 'him' or 'herself' experiences that vipaka-kamma.

The Buddha also felt pain - read the parinibbana sutta - 'he' was in 'agony' - why? he had a body and he was quite ill. But he didn't attach to it - unlike you or I probably would. It was just 'the felt' of the heaps - not 'O Christ, my guts are killing me - why me?'
Absolutely no argument with you there. The issue seems to be whether arahants endure suffering until death. Is painful sensation suffering? Absolutely not - its certainly not my understanding and from my reading of your post, it isn't yours either.
Asura-girl wrote: Realisation of nibbana doesn't mean one is 'super-monk' or 'super-monketta'
Ah well,to be in the words of John Dunne, a 'pedantic wretch', I would say that would depend on what you meant by 'super-monk' and 'super-monketta'. If one had full realization (arahant) or even one of the three lower ariyan attainments, I reckon it would be grounds for super-hood.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

retrofuturist wrote:
When Alex asked, "Are you saying that something remains after parinibbāna?", I'm pretty sure he was asking in terms of the "continuity" of the "person".
Right. Parinibbana is the end.
Ben wrote: The issue seems to be whether arahants endure suffering until death. Is painful sensation suffering? Absolutely not
Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’’ti , All formations are dukkhā. Dhp 278

Is dukkha-vedanā, dukkha?

28. But when the Blessed One had entered upon the rainy season, there arose in him a severe illness, and sharp and deadly pains came upon him.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... tml#fnt-41" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The fact is that even the Buddha has experienced dukkha to some degree.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Ben »

Alex123 wrote: The fact is that even the Buddha has experienced dukkha to some degree.
Actually, Alex,its just your interpretation based on selective reading.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Vepacitta »

Gabe - one cannot impute a personality onto the Tathagata- a Tathagata has no personality to be aligned anywhere. There is no being there.

V.

NB - Ben- the super monk (monketta is my derivation thereof) is something my teacher said about how the suttas display the 'steely' qualities of monks, especially the Buddha. "But not SUPERMONK!" (then imagine a skinny Buddhist monk flexing his biceps. It was pretty funny). However, it has occurred to me that there is some exageration in the sutta pitika ( :jawdrop: I know!) And it has also occurred to me that 'us beings here' tend to have a perniciously exagerrated view of what 'the quenching' (nibbana) really is. People tend to imbue people/things/concepts with their own projections - and I think that the authors of the suttas were no exception. And we, the readers are no exceptions - and so - I like to take things down a peg, or two, or maybe even ... three.

Just my thoughts on the matter -

o and it's Asura-GAL to you!

V.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Can you please explain exactly what you disagree with and why?

Are you saying that something remains after parinibbāna?
It depends on how you characterize "somthing". Certainly Paṭicca-samuppāda remains.
First you mean the one that starts with ignorance and ends with dukkha? Or do you mean the Upanisa one?

Even "khayeñāṇa" (knowledge of destruction ) doesn't remain when parinibbāna occurs. How could "khayeñāṇa" remain if all consciousness ceases, and no new consciousness (which would be required for any knowledge/experience) arises?
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by tiltbillings »

Vepacitta wrote:Gabe - one cannot impute a personality onto the Tathagata- a Tathagata has no personality to be aligned anywhere. There is no being there.
Let us not forget that tathagata is also a descriptive term for an arahant. Arahants, as we see them in the Pali suttas, do not have distinct personalities?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

Ben wrote:
Alex123 wrote: The fact is that even the Buddha has experienced dukkha to some degree.
Actually, Alex,its just your interpretation based on selective reading.

How do you explain DN16 talk on Buddha's illness? How do you explain that all saṅkhārā are dukkhā?


Bodily pain is classified as being included in 1st NT of Dukkha.
[a] "Now what is the noble truth of stress? Birth is stressful, aging is stressful, death is stressful; sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are stressful; association with the unbeloved is stressful; separation from the loved is stressful; not getting what one wants is stressful. In short, the five clinging-aggregates are stressful.

"And what is pain? Whatever is experienced as bodily pain, bodily discomfort, pain or discomfort born of bodily contact, that is called pain.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Vepacitta wrote:Gabe - one cannot impute a personality onto the Tathagata- a Tathagata has no personality to be aligned anywhere. There is no being there.

V.

NB - Ben- the super monk (monketta is my derivation thereof) is something my teacher said about how the suttas display the 'steely' qualities of monks, especially the Buddha. "But not SUPERMONK!" (then imagine a skinny Buddhist monk flexing his biceps. It was pretty funny). However, it has occurred to me that there is some exageration in the sutta pitika ( :jawdrop: I know!) And it has also occurred to me that 'us beings here' tend to have a perniciously exagerrated view of what 'the quenching' (nibbana) really is. People tend to imbue people/things/concepts with their own projections - and I think that the authors of the suttas were no exception. And we, the readers are no exceptions - and so - I like to take things down a peg, or two, or maybe even ... three.

Just my thoughts on the matter -

o and it's Asura-GAL to you!

V.

I agree Vepacitta. However the closest the Buddha came to allowing himself to be identified was to Identify with Paṭicca-samuppāda. This is of course not a personality in any sense which we understand it.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:
Can you please explain exactly what you disagree with and why?

Are you saying that something remains after parinibbāna?
It depends on how you characterize "somthing". Certainly Paṭicca-samuppāda remains.
First you mean the one that starts with ignorance and ends with dukkha? Or do you mean the Upanisa one?

Even "khayeñāṇa" (knowledge of destruction ) doesn't remain when parinibbāna occurs. How could "khayeñāṇa" remain if all consciousness ceases, and no new consciousness (which would be required for any knowledge/experience) arises?
I mean the one that starts with ignorance and ends with Knowledge of the destruction of the asavas . One contains the other.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

gabrielbranbury wrote: I mean the one that starts with ignorance and ends with Knowledge of the destruction of the asavas . One contains the other.

Metta

Gabe

Can it exist without any aggregates? Even if it did, how wouldm'y it contradict the
With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere
bodily remains will be left." - SN12.51(1). Ven. BB Trans.
No mention of any law remaining for that Arhat.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Vepacitta »

Boys, boys, boys!

The Buddha certainly did experience Dukkha - why, it freaked him out soooooo much that he ran away from home, undertook "spiritual" practises (g'head - ask me to define that - g'wan - I double-dog dares ya to), finally discerned the Dhamma, realised nibbana, set the wheel a rollin', and taught 'dukkha', it's origin, cessation and way to cessation to others.

Now, upon the Tathagata's awakening, he certainly didn't go on 'samara-ing' - making more dukkha for himself. He understood that anything conditioned was ultimaely aniccam, dukkham, anatman - so in that sense - one could say that he 'experienced' dukkha until he died - because when 'one' is alive - conditioned shit happens all the damn time. However, as I just said, (SUPERMONK - sorry couldn't resist!) the Tathagata knew that conditioned things were dukkha - suffering, unsatisfactory - why? because he understood dukkha - it's origin, its cessation and the path leading to cessation - soooooooooooooooooooo,

in that sense - the Tathagata no longer experienced dukkha whilst alive ...

As it were ...

Now, let's all wash our hands and have some ice cream...

Maternally yours from Mt. Meru,

V.

(But don't piss Mama-Asura off ...)
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"

"Previously, my friend Sariputta, I did foolishly hold that evil supposition. But now, having heard your explanation of the Dhamma, I have abandoned that evil supposition, and have broken through to the Dhamma."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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