the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:35 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:To percieve a difference between Nibbana and ParaNibbana is to identify the Buddha with the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. Besides you already defined existence in terms of the presence of a body or a mind.
Metta

Gabe


There is Nibbana with remainder (of aggregates) and Nibbana without remainder (no aggregates). So there is a difference of there being presence of aggregates or not.

Any kind of justification of existence after Parinibbana is simply clinging to existence, clinging to some thing that is mispercieved to be without dukkha.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:37 pm

Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:To percieve a difference between Nibbana and ParaNibbana is to identify the Buddha with the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. Besides you already defined existence in terms of the presence of a body or a mind.
Metta

Gabe


There is Nibbana with remainder (of 5 aggregates) and Nibbana without remainder (no 5 aggregates). So there is a difference of there being presence of 5 aggregates or not.


Only because we perceive a difference not because it is Dhamma.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:38 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:To percieve a difference between Nibbana and ParaNibbana is to identify the Buddha with the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. Besides you already defined existence in terms of the presence of a body or a mind.
Metta

Gabe


There is Nibbana with remainder (of 5 aggregates) and Nibbana without remainder (no 5 aggregates). So there is a difference of there being presence of 5 aggregates or not.


Only because we perceive one not because it is Dhamma.

Metta

Gabe


Can you please explain what you've meant?


Prior to Parinibbana there are aggregates. When parinibbana occurs, aggregates cease and no new aggregates arise.



[Sariputta] how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"
[Yamaka] "Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html


No hints at any new form of becoming. Just cessation.
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:43 pm

I recall it is said in the Satta Sutta that "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form"/feeling/perception/fabrication/consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being." And so then when that craving is gone, there is not said to be a "being", that is; "bhavanirodha".

So it seems to me that what's being said is that "existence" or ""being" as relevant to Buddhism is perhaps not the simple presence of phenomena as we tend to generally think of it. The really important thing is, as usual, craving (aversion & ignorance).

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:43 pm

Alex123 wrote:
Can you please explain what you've meant?


Prior to Parinibbana there are aggregates. When parinibbana occurs, aggregates cease and no new aggregates arise.


To see the Buddha is to see Dependent Arising. To see Dependent Arising is to see the Buddha.
MN 28
Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.028.than.html
Metta

Gabe
Last edited by Prasadachitta on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:48 pm

Kenshou wrote:I recall it is said in the Satta Sutta that "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form"/feeling/perception/fabrication/consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being." And so then when that craving is gone, there is not said to be a "being", that is; "bhavanirodha".

So it seems to me that what's being said is that "existence" or ""being" as relevant to Buddhism is perhaps not the simple presence of phenomena as we tend to generally think of it. The really important thing is, as usual, craving (aversion & ignorance).


The word in Satta Sutta is satta. Not "bhava".

Satta can mean = "attached or clinging to."

So the sutta CAN be interpreted as:

""Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form"/feeling/perception/fabrication/consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'attached or clinging to."




To forestall some future comments:
I believe that suttas are consistent when it comes to Pari-Nibbana. If we agree on that, then any kind of descriptions have to be consistent with

"‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere bodily remains will be left." - SN12.51(1).


that description of what happens. So, IMHO all references to positive states of Nibbana either refer to Nibbana of alive arahant (or rather the aggregates we call an Arahant), attainment of arahattaphala samādhi, or they refer to full cessation (parinibbāna) with no kind of experience remaining.
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:53 pm

Alex123 wrote:Any kind of justification of existence after Parinibbana is simply clinging to existence, clinging to some thing that is mispercieved to be without dukkha.


Any justification of existence before Parinibbana is also either clinging to existence or non existence.

Metta


Gabe
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:55 pm

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Any kind of justification of existence after Parinibbana is simply clinging to existence, clinging to some thing that is mispercieved to be without dukkha.


Any justification of existence before Parinibbana is also either clinging to existence or non existence.

Metta


Gabe


There is no Arahat as an existing being to cease, right. There are only impersonal aggregates that can cease and never re-occur again. So in this sense, parinibbana is not anihhilation of an existing being. Just cessation of dukkha with no new dukkha appearing.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:02 pm

Alex123 wrote:The word in Satta Sutta is satta. Not "bhava".


I know, and I didn't try to say that. Just trying to draw a parallel, sorry if that wasn't so obvious.

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:05 pm

There is absolutely no justification for any kind of existence not to include dukkha. While it is true that craving/ignorance plays an important part, even the mere presence of 5 aggregates or 12 spheres or 18 elements or even consciousness of any kind is dukkha.


“Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of form … of feeling … of perception … of volitional constructions … of consciousness is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death.

“The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of form … of consciousness is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.” - BB Trans SN26.10
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:16 pm

I hesitate to take such passages 100% literally. Without craving/aversion/delusion, where is there a support for dukkha? (Besides of course the obligatory bodily pain.) I don't know, I'm not enlightened.

All compounded things are dukkha in that they are ultimately unsatisfactory, certainly, (and maybe that's all that is meant, not sure) but that their mere occurrence, even when craving and aversion are not at play, is stressful, I am skeptical. I suppose it hinges on precisely how you translate dukkha, which is sort of a multifaceted word.

But like I said, I dunno.

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:01 pm

Greetings Alex,

I hesitate to enter this discussion, since I do not foresee this ending profitably, however I'll try.

The crux of where your perspective on this particular matter of nibbana vs annihilation seems to lie in your definition of existence, which you define as "presence of mind and/or body."

Can I ask a question in relation to that. Does this sentence mean to you...

1. The ontological independent existence of a biologically living organism

2. The phenomenological experience of mind and/or body

If you take it to mean #1, then it is no wonder you take permanent death itself to be goal.

#2 on the other hand, describes a qualitative experience. If experience is conditioned by ignorance, then the consequences of #1 & #2 are pretty much the same. However, by transcending ignorance and seeing through all false perceptions of self within the five aggregates, the Buddha developed a unique mode of perception not conditioned by ignorance, which involved the absence of sankhara.

Again, we're likely to come up again interpretive road-blocks here as you're likely to regard sankhara in this context as past kamma, rather than in its more common sense of something which is dependent upon something else (in this case, explicitly stated as ignorance).

Now, the mode of perception or mode of existence discovered by the Buddha is unique and is what constitutes the essence of the Dhamma. It's not merely a way to avoid the "ontological independent existence of a biologically living organism", but it's a means by which to experience nibbana here-and-now (i.e. not waiting until death). It's an enlightened mode of perception that lays down the burden of the five aggregates and the six sense bases, and doesn't engage them in a subject-object relationship. It is not 'existence', or 'being' or 'becoming' by any referrent with which we are familiar with as puttujanas.

I could say more, but I'd inadvertently find myself doing a disservice to those who explain these subtle matters of the Dhamma far better than me... on this subject, the works of Nanananda Bhikkhu are paramount and you'll find much of interest in the Nibbana Sermons to really stimulate thought on the distinctions raised in this topic.

Now, I don't know your motivation for participating in this topic. It may be simply to express your perspective, which is fair enough and I don't want to degrade the potential value of this. However, if you're not fixed in your views (and let's be honest, who short of a stream-entrant should be?) and prepared to explore well considered, well reasoned, well explained alternatives to existing frameworks, the Nibbana Sermons are seriously worthy of investigation.

Nibbana Sermons
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... rmon_8.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:41 pm

Hello Kenshou, Retro, all,

Kenshou wrote:I hesitate to take such passages 100% literally. Without craving/aversion/delusion, where is there a support for dukkha? (Besides of course the obligatory bodily pain.) I don't know, I'm not enlightened.


An Arahant/Buddha can still experience result (akusala vipāka) of PAST akusala kamma due to past craving/aversion/delusion. So result from past bad deeds can still occur for an Arahant even if that unwholesome action was performed aeons ago. The mind & body of an Arahant can still experience pain which is due to the fact of having a body and due to ripening of (akusala vipāka) .
Ultimately no kind of existence (having mind & body) is free from dukkha of one or the other type. Arahants are freed from all dukkha after death, while those below Arhatship are not.

The crux of where your perspective on this particular matter of nibbana vs annihilation seems to lie in your definition of existence, which you define as "presence of mind and/or body."

Can I ask a question in relation to that. Do this sentence mean to you...


Experientially there is no difference between atheistic death and PariNibbana, unless atheists think that death is falling into black nothingness. What the materialist atheist differ is in conceptual interpretation and lack of belief in rebirth. But Parinibbana is COMPLETE cessation with nothing remaning. It is just not death of a trully existing being, and it is not a bad event. It is a liberating and peaceful event for an Arahant as all that is lost is just pile of suffering.


I understand that for those who don't realize that all and any awareness/consciousness/experience is ultimately dukkha, the Buddha's teaching on Nibbāna can sound bleak. Even in His time he was criticized (by those who didn't understand) for teaching "anihhilationism".
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:58 pm

Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Any kind of justification of existence after Parinibbana is simply clinging to existence, clinging to some thing that is mispercieved to be without dukkha.


Any justification of existence before Parinibbana is also either clinging to existence or non existence.

Metta


Gabe


There is no Arahat as an existing being to cease, right. There are only impersonal aggregates that can cease and never re-occur again. So in this sense, parinibbana is not anihhilation of an existing being. Just cessation of dukkha with no new dukkha appearing.



How can there be dukkha if there is no existing being? In what way do you think beings exist? In what way do the aggregates exist? Dependent Arising rolls on for better or for worse. The Dhamma is dependent arising. There is nothing which arises without influencing that which arises in its wake. Even cessation is influential in that it gives way. The cessation of the Buddha has influenced Billions of people. I think for the better. Through this influence we can see the Buddha. How do we see the Buddha? We see the Buddha by seeing Dependent Arising. When we see Dependent Arising We will see the Buddha. To See Dependent Arising is to spark off the progressive trend which is the cessation of greed hatred and delusion. Dependent Arising neither exists nor does not exist and yet we can see it.


Metta

Gabe
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:06 am

Alex123 wrote:Experientially there is no difference between atheistic death and PariNibbana, unless atheists think that death is falling into black nothingness. What the materialist atheist differ is in conceptual interpretation and lack of belief in rebirth. But Parinibbana is COMPLETE cessation with nothing remaning. It is just not death of a trully existing being, and it is not a bad event. It is a liberating and peaceful event for an Arahant as all that is lost is just pile of suffering.


I understand that for those who don't realize that all and any awareness/consciousness/experience is ultimately dukkha, the Buddha's teaching on Nibbāna can sound bleak. Even in His time he was criticized (by those who didn't understand) for teaching "anihhilationism".


You are doing a serious disservice to the Dhamma in my opinion. I hope that you can find a way out of this pernicious view. Thankfully the Buddha has provided the way out so I hope you continue to study.


Take care

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:11 am

gabrielbranbury wrote:How can there be dukkha if there is no existing being? I


But there are aggregates. There is dukkha-vedanā.

in what way do you think beings exist?

As a stream of cause-effect process of aggregates.

In what way do the aggregates exist?

As a fact of Experience. The idea of a Being is a conceptual overlay.

Dependent Arising rolls on for better or for worse. The Dhamma is dependent arising. There is nothing which arises without influencing that which arises in its wake.

Dependent arising (I assume you mean paṭicca-samuppāda) rolls ONLY for worse as it starts with avijjā.
Cessation of it is happiness, but never arising.

How do we see the Buddha? We see the Buddha by seeing Dependent Arising. When we see Dependent Arising We will see the Buddha.


So are you saying that the Buddha is "with the arising of ignorance, there is arising of volitional activities?" ???


with ignorance as condition, volitional activities come to be;
with volitional activities as condition, consciousness comes to be;
with consciousness as condition, name-and-form comes to be;
with name-and-form as condition, the sixfold base comes to be;
with the sixfold base as condition, contact comes to be;
with contact as condition, feeling comes to be;
with feeling as condition, craving comes to be;
with craving as condition, grasping comes to be;
with grasping as condition, being comes to be;
with being as condition, birth comes to be;
with birth as condition, aging-and-death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair come to be.
This is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .irel.html
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:11 am

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Experientially there is no difference between atheistic death and PariNibbana, unless atheists think that death is falling into black nothingness. What the materialist atheist differ is in conceptual interpretation and lack of belief in rebirth. But Parinibbana is COMPLETE cessation with nothing remaning. It is just not death of a trully existing being, and it is not a bad event. It is a liberating and peaceful event for an Arahant as all that is lost is just pile of suffering.


I understand that for those who don't realize that all and any awareness/consciousness/experience is ultimately dukkha, the Buddha's teaching on Nibbāna can sound bleak. Even in His time he was criticized (by those who didn't understand) for teaching "anihhilationism".


You are doing a serious disservice to the Dhamma in my opinion. I hope that you can find a way out of this pernicious view. Thankfully the Buddha has provided the way out so I hope you continue to study.


Take care

Gabe


Can you please explain exactly what you disagree with and why?

Are you saying that something remains after parinibbāna?

With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere
bodily remains will be left."
-
SN12.51(1). BB Trans

The body disintegrated, perception ceased, pain & rapture were entirely consumed, fabrications were stilled: consciousness (Viññāṇaṃ) has come to its end.” – Ud 8.9
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:20 am

Alex123 wrote:Dependent arising (I assume you mean paṭicca-samuppāda) rolls ONLY for worse as it starts with avijjā.
Cessation of it is happiness, but never arising.


Here is how paṭicca-samuppāda rolls on for the better. This is but one exposition of how but there are many others.

"Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean — in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity,tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."

Upanisa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/bodhi/wheel277.html
Last edited by Prasadachitta on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:23 am

So you've meant what is known as transcendental arising, not the standard version of paṭicca-samuppāda that starts with ignorance and ends with suffering. Good.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:25 am

Alex123 wrote:So you've meant what is known as transcendental arising, not the standard version of paṭicca-samuppāda that starts with ignorance and ends with suffering. Good.


Indeed but it still starts with ignorance.

Just as Ignorance supports Suffering

Suffering supports Faith

and so on.

Paṭicca-samuppāda happens for better or for worse.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332


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