the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote: Existence = presence of mind and/or body.

It is ultimately more or less dukkha, but still dukkha. The cessation of all dukkha is real peace.

Some think that happiness lies in pleasant feelings. But real "happiness" is absence of any and all dukkha.

Are you saying that the Buddha didnt get released from dukkha till his body perished?
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Existence = presence of mind and/or body.

It is ultimately more or less dukkha, but still dukkha. The cessation of all dukkha is real peace.

Some think that happiness lies in pleasant feelings. But real "happiness" is absence of any and all dukkha.

Are you saying that the Buddha didnt get released from dukkha till his body perished?

Right. Even the Buddha experienced Physical dukkha. He just didn't experience emotional/mental one. He was "shot with one arrow" rather than "being shot with two". It may shock some, but even being an Arhat is still dukkha, just much less dukkha than being someone below that. The most peaceful and totally dukkha free is PariNibbana. Even an Arahant/Buddha has pain due to existence of remaining aggregates.
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Existence = presence of mind and/or body.

It is ultimately more or less dukkha, but still dukkha. The cessation of all dukkha is real peace.

Some think that happiness lies in pleasant feelings. But real "happiness" is absence of any and all dukkha.

Are you saying that the Buddha didnt get released from dukkha till his body perished?

Right. Even the Buddha experienced Physical dukkha. He just didn't experience emotional/mental one. He was "shot with one arrow" rather than "being shot with two". It may shock some, but even being an Arhat is still dukkha, just much less dukkha than being someone below that. The most peaceful and totally dukkha free is PariNibbana.
I personally think this is a serious misunderstanding.
"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?... Elsewhere than consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"What do you think: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without consciousness?"

"No, my friend."

"And so, my friend Yamaka — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death'?"
SN 22.85

Yamaka Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

If you think "The Buddha" feels pain and then there is some kind of entity which you call "The Buddha" stops feeling pain, then you have identified a Buddha where no Buddha can be found.


Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

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gabrielbranbury wrote:
If you think "The Buddha" feels pain and then there is some kind of entity which you call "The Buddha" stops feeling pain, then you have identified a Buddha where no Buddha can be found.


Metta

Gabe
Not the Buddha/Arhat as an existing Being, but 5 aggregates we call "the Buddha/Arhat" that experience dukkha-vedanā, dukkha-vedanā which is still felt.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote:
If you think "The Buddha" feels pain and then there is some kind of entity which you call "The Buddha" stops feeling pain, then you have identified a Buddha where no Buddha can be found.


Metta

Gabe
Not the Buddha/Arhat as an existing Being, but 5 aggregates we call "the Buddha/Arhat" that experience dukkha-vedanā, dukkha-vedanā which is still felt.
To percieve a difference between Nibbana and ParaNibbana is to identify the Buddha with the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. Besides you already defined existence in terms of the presence of a body or a mind.


Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

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gabrielbranbury wrote: To percieve a difference between Nibbana and ParaNibbana is to identify the Buddha with the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. Besides you already defined existence in terms of the presence of a body or a mind.
Metta

Gabe
There is Nibbana with remainder (of aggregates) and Nibbana without remainder (no aggregates). So there is a difference of there being presence of aggregates or not.

Any kind of justification of existence after Parinibbana is simply clinging to existence, clinging to some thing that is mispercieved to be without dukkha.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote: To percieve a difference between Nibbana and ParaNibbana is to identify the Buddha with the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. Besides you already defined existence in terms of the presence of a body or a mind.
Metta

Gabe
There is Nibbana with remainder (of 5 aggregates) and Nibbana without remainder (no 5 aggregates). So there is a difference of there being presence of 5 aggregates or not.
Only because we perceive a difference not because it is Dhamma.

Metta

Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
gabrielbranbury wrote: To percieve a difference between Nibbana and ParaNibbana is to identify the Buddha with the aggregates or apart from the aggregates. Besides you already defined existence in terms of the presence of a body or a mind.
Metta

Gabe
There is Nibbana with remainder (of 5 aggregates) and Nibbana without remainder (no 5 aggregates). So there is a difference of there being presence of 5 aggregates or not.
Only because we perceive one not because it is Dhamma.

Metta

Gabe
Can you please explain what you've meant?


Prior to Parinibbana there are aggregates. When parinibbana occurs, aggregates cease and no new aggregates arise.


[Sariputta] how would you answer if you are thus asked: A monk, a worthy one, with no more mental effluents: what is he on the break-up of the body, after death?"
[Yamaka] "Thus asked, I would answer, 'Form is inconstant... Feeling... Perception... Fabrications... Consciousness is inconstant. That which is inconstant is stressful. That which is stressful has ceased and gone to its end."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
No hints at any new form of becoming. Just cessation.
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

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I recall it is said in the Satta Sutta that "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form"/feeling/perception/fabrication/consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being." And so then when that craving is gone, there is not said to be a "being", that is; "bhavanirodha".

So it seems to me that what's being said is that "existence" or ""being" as relevant to Buddhism is perhaps not the simple presence of phenomena as we tend to generally think of it. The really important thing is, as usual, craving (aversion & ignorance).
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

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Alex123 wrote:
Can you please explain what you've meant?


Prior to Parinibbana there are aggregates. When parinibbana occurs, aggregates cease and no new aggregates arise.
To see the Buddha is to see Dependent Arising. To see Dependent Arising is to see the Buddha.
MN 28
Maha-hatthipadopama Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Metta

Gabe
Last edited by Prasadachitta on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

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Kenshou wrote:I recall it is said in the Satta Sutta that "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form"/feeling/perception/fabrication/consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being." And so then when that craving is gone, there is not said to be a "being", that is; "bhavanirodha".

So it seems to me that what's being said is that "existence" or ""being" as relevant to Buddhism is perhaps not the simple presence of phenomena as we tend to generally think of it. The really important thing is, as usual, craving (aversion & ignorance).
The word in Satta Sutta is satta. Not "bhava".

Satta can mean = "attached or clinging to."

So the sutta CAN be interpreted as:

""Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form"/feeling/perception/fabrication/consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'attached or clinging to."




To forestall some future comments:
I believe that suttas are consistent when it comes to Pari-Nibbana. If we agree on that, then any kind of descriptions have to be consistent with
"‘With the breakup of the body, following the exhaustion of life, all feelings, not being delighted in, will become cool right here; mere bodily remains will be left." - SN12.51(1).
that description of what happens. So, IMHO all references to positive states of Nibbana either refer to Nibbana of alive arahant (or rather the aggregates we call an Arahant), attainment of arahattaphala samādhi, or they refer to full cessation (parinibbāna) with no kind of experience remaining.
Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Prasadachitta »

Alex123 wrote: Any kind of justification of existence after Parinibbana is simply clinging to existence, clinging to some thing that is mispercieved to be without dukkha.
Any justification of existence before Parinibbana is also either clinging to existence or non existence.

Metta


Gabe
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

gabrielbranbury wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Any kind of justification of existence after Parinibbana is simply clinging to existence, clinging to some thing that is mispercieved to be without dukkha.
Any justification of existence before Parinibbana is also either clinging to existence or non existence.

Metta


Gabe
There is no Arahat as an existing being to cease, right. There are only impersonal aggregates that can cease and never re-occur again. So in this sense, parinibbana is not anihhilation of an existing being. Just cessation of dukkha with no new dukkha appearing.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Kenshou »

Alex123 wrote:The word in Satta Sutta is satta. Not "bhava".
I know, and I didn't try to say that. Just trying to draw a parallel, sorry if that wasn't so obvious.
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Post by Alex123 »

There is absolutely no justification for any kind of existence not to include dukkha. While it is true that craving/ignorance plays an important part, even the mere presence of 5 aggregates or 12 spheres or 18 elements or even consciousness of any kind is dukkha.

“Bhikkhus, the arising, continuation, production, and manifestation of form … of feeling … of perception … of volitional constructions … of consciousness is the arising of suffering, the continuation of disease, the manifestation of aging-and-death.

“The cessation, subsiding, and passing away of form … of consciousness is the cessation of suffering, the subsiding of disease, the passing away of aging-and-death.” - BB Trans SN26.10
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