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the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread - Page 5 - Dhamma Wheel

the great Nibbana = annihilation, eternal, or something else thread

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:35 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:37 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:38 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:43 pm

I recall it is said in the Satta Sutta that "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form"/feeling/perception/fabrication/consciousness, Radha: when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a being." And so then when that craving is gone, there is not said to be a "being", that is; "bhavanirodha".

So it seems to me that what's being said is that "existence" or ""being" as relevant to Buddhism is perhaps not the simple presence of phenomena as we tend to generally think of it. The really important thing is, as usual, craving (aversion & ignorance).

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:43 pm

Last edited by Prasadachitta on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:48 pm

Last edited by Alex123 on Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:53 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 9:55 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:02 pm


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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:05 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

Kenshou
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Kenshou » Mon Oct 11, 2010 10:16 pm

I hesitate to take such passages 100% literally. Without craving/aversion/delusion, where is there a support for dukkha? (Besides of course the obligatory bodily pain.) I don't know, I'm not enlightened.

All compounded things are dukkha in that they are ultimately unsatisfactory, certainly, (and maybe that's all that is meant, not sure) but that their mere occurrence, even when craving and aversion are not at play, is stressful, I am skeptical. I suppose it hinges on precisely how you translate dukkha, which is sort of a multifaceted word.

But like I said, I dunno.

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:01 pm

Greetings Alex,

I hesitate to enter this discussion, since I do not foresee this ending profitably, however I'll try.

The crux of where your perspective on this particular matter of nibbana vs annihilation seems to lie in your definition of existence, which you define as "presence of mind and/or body."

Can I ask a question in relation to that. Does this sentence mean to you...

1. The ontological independent existence of a biologically living organism

2. The phenomenological experience of mind and/or body

If you take it to mean #1, then it is no wonder you take permanent death itself to be goal.

#2 on the other hand, describes a qualitative experience. If experience is conditioned by ignorance, then the consequences of #1 & #2 are pretty much the same. However, by transcending ignorance and seeing through all false perceptions of self within the five aggregates, the Buddha developed a unique mode of perception not conditioned by ignorance, which involved the absence of sankhara.

Again, we're likely to come up again interpretive road-blocks here as you're likely to regard sankhara in this context as past kamma, rather than in its more common sense of something which is dependent upon something else (in this case, explicitly stated as ignorance).

Now, the mode of perception or mode of existence discovered by the Buddha is unique and is what constitutes the essence of the Dhamma. It's not merely a way to avoid the "ontological independent existence of a biologically living organism", but it's a means by which to experience nibbana here-and-now (i.e. not waiting until death). It's an enlightened mode of perception that lays down the burden of the five aggregates and the six sense bases, and doesn't engage them in a subject-object relationship. It is not 'existence', or 'being' or 'becoming' by any referrent with which we are familiar with as puttujanas.

I could say more, but I'd inadvertently find myself doing a disservice to those who explain these subtle matters of the Dhamma far better than me... on this subject, the works of Nanananda Bhikkhu are paramount and you'll find much of interest in the Nibbana Sermons to really stimulate thought on the distinctions raised in this topic.

Now, I don't know your motivation for participating in this topic. It may be simply to express your perspective, which is fair enough and I don't want to degrade the potential value of this. However, if you're not fixed in your views (and let's be honest, who short of a stream-entrant should be?) and prepared to explore well considered, well reasoned, well explained alternatives to existing frameworks, the Nibbana Sermons are seriously worthy of investigation.

Nibbana Sermons
http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... rmon_8.htm

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:41 pm

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon Oct 11, 2010 11:58 pm

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:06 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:11 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:11 am

"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:20 am

Last edited by Prasadachitta on Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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Alex123
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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Alex123 » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:23 am

So you've meant what is known as transcendental arising, not the standard version of paṭicca-samuppāda that starts with ignorance and ends with suffering. Good.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: Nibbana vs. annihilation?

Postby Prasadachitta » Tue Oct 12, 2010 12:25 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332


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