Is a UK student loan considered debt

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
marcpiano
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Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by marcpiano »

Hi all,

Is a UK student loan (ie through the Student Loans Company rather than a private arrangement between an individual and a bank) considered a debt for the purposes of fulfilling the pre-requisites for ordination?

Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.

Thanks in advance!
fabianfred
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by fabianfred »

Like most things...intention is all important. If you are intending to ordain to escape your debts then that is wrong...otherwise you should be OK.
PeterB
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by PeterB »

marcpiano wrote:Hi all,

Is a UK student loan (ie through the Student Loans Company rather than a private arrangement between an individual and a bank) considered a debt for the purposes of fulfilling the pre-requisites for ordination?

Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.

Thanks in advance!
I dont know the answer marcpiano. I suggest that you contact the loan company and outline your querie to them.
marcpiano
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by marcpiano »

Hi, I'm just doing some preliminary research into the practicalities at the moment. No intention to escape debts - it's the only debt I have as I'm fortunate enough to be able to live without credit or the need for credit!

If I were to ordain it wouldn't be for a couple of years yet, with escape not even being on the agenda! I'll explain in more detail on the weekend.
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

In short:

If you accept a loan, and the person or organisation expects it back, and that is a condition of your contract, that's all she wrote.
Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.
Ok, but it is agreed that the person actively seeks employment, and a monk can't.

If your intention is to ordinate after studies, it is deceptive to accept a loan, unless you lay open your plans and they accept you will not be making any money. .
Mawkish1983
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

In the UK the student loan system is quite special. Maybe 'loan' is a misnomer, it is more of a 'grant now, tax later' system. In many cases, the student loans company doesn't expect it back at all (as used to be the case with teachers, there was a scheme to encourage new teachers to stay in the profession whereby after five years - I think - the loan was wiped. Not sure if they still do that). Unlike a 'real' loan you can't avoid paying it because it comes straight out of your wages. You'll never have debt collectors knocking at your door for it. You'll never default no a payment. When I got my mortgage they didn't even count it as debt.

In my opinion, a student loan isn't debt and wouldn't hold you back from ordaining.

(Incidentally, I have over £12000 in student loans and this year will add another £6000 to it)
Mawkish1983
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Annapurna wrote:the person or organisation expects it back, and that is a condition of your contract ... it is agreed that the person actively seeks employment
This isn't true. Getting a job isn't a postrequisite, nor is even getting a qualification.
PeterB
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by PeterB »

Its true Mawkish...its a specific kind of debt. Thats why I suggested talking it through with the SLC.
It may be that producing evidence of not being in the jobs market they might put the requirement on hold..
Mawkish1983
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Mawkish1983 »

PeterB wrote:It may be that producing evidence of not being in the jobs market they might put the requirement on hold..
Who is they? If you're talking about the student loans company, they would already know because the money is taken directly from someone's pay (BACS, alongside PAYE), so it's all automated. If you don't earn, you don't pay, just like income tax. If you're saying 'they' is the monastery, won't they already know the monk isn't working?

I don't get it :s
PeterB
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by PeterB »

marcpiano wrote:Hi all,

Is a UK student loan (ie through the Student Loans Company rather than a private arrangement between an individual and a bank) considered a debt for the purposes of fulfilling the pre-requisites for ordination?

Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.

Thanks in advance!
OK I wasnt very clear. :smile:

It seems to me that the issue here might be ( in addition to the logistics and so on ) marcpianos peace of mind.
If that is a correct assumption then a conversation with someone at student loans may promote his peace of mind.
Just a thought.
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

Mawkish1983 wrote:In the UK the student loan system is quite special. Maybe 'loan' is a misnomer, it is more of a 'grant now, tax later' system. In many cases, the student loans company doesn't expect it back at all (as used to be the case with teachers, there was a scheme to encourage new teachers to stay in the profession whereby after five years - I think - the loan was wiped. Not sure if they still do that). Unlike a 'real' loan you can't avoid paying it because it comes straight out of your wages. You'll never have debt collectors knocking at your door for it. You'll never default no a payment. When I got my mortgage they didn't even count it as debt.

In my opinion, a student loan isn't debt and wouldn't hold you back from ordaining.

(Incidentally, I have over £12000 in student loans and this year will add another £6000 to it)
We have the same system, more or less.

The state pays a monthly support for poor people, and they have to pay it back after finding a job.
ot money from the state.

I would feel grateful and indebted and would try to pay it back, if I had enjoyed this support.

But I didn't. My parents had payed an education insurance, so I got that while studying, and after that was over, I paid my medical school from my own money.
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

Mawkish1983 wrote:
Annapurna wrote:the person or organisation expects it back, and that is a condition of your contract ... it is agreed that the person actively seeks employment
This isn't true. Getting a job isn't a postrequisite, nor is even getting a qualification.
Please quote me in context.

I said:
Its repayment is linked to earnings (so if you're unemployed, you don't pay it back until you gain employment) and it is automatically cleared after 25 years.
Ok, but it is agreed that the person actively seeks employment, and a monk can't.
WHY would anybody study when he already intends to get ordained?
5heaps
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by 5heaps »

ignore your student loans, they're highly immoral.

furthermore its not agreed that you must actively seek employment.. it just says that in the case that you do find employment something goes into effect. if you dont find work, you have zero obligation.
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marcpiano
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by marcpiano »

Just to clarify, I completed the studies 4 years ago and have been working since, with the exploration of the idea of ordination only coming in the last 8 months. I'm now doing in depth due diligence on all aspects of it, and this was one part. Cheers for the replies and the moral aspect which I'd not considered as well! I now have some more information and enquiries to make on this.
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Annapurna
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Re: Is a UK student loan considered debt

Post by Annapurna »

5heaps wrote:ignore your student loans, they're highly immoral.

furthermore its not agreed that you must actively seek employment.. it just says that in the case that you do find employment something goes into effect. if you dont find work, you have zero obligation.

furthermore its not agreed that you must actively seek employment..
Ok, perhaps the English are a bit different from ze Germans. :tongue:

We have to seek work, and proove we do.

And accept the jobs we are being offered.

As far as I'm informed, I really don't care a lot, I have more work than I can handle.
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