the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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jcsuperstar
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the great rebirth debate

Postby jcsuperstar » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:42 am

i guess someone needs to get this ball rolling :twisted:

personally i believe in literal rebirth. it's just i don't care that much about it. and i don't think it's a necessity. i feel the non literal moment to moment view of rebirth is far more important to focus on in terms of one's daily practice.

what's your take?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:07 am

Greetings JC,

Oh, go on then! :twisted:

I believe the Buddha taught conventional rebirth, but I think it's more important to realise that there's nothing to 're' and nothing to be 'born'. There are the five aggregates, interconnected, and nama-rupa and consciousness have a mutual dependency as explained in suttas such as the wonderful DN 15 - Mahanidana Sutta (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html). As I understand it, conventional death is not the end of this process. One moment of consciousness is the condition for the next, and so it is over conventional 'lives'. I also believe that the Buddha was more intent on removing the 'self' or 'atman' from people's perceptions, and thereby removing eternalist and annihilationist views than he was about convincing people about 'rebirth'.

I'll leave it at that for now until we see some other responses to your challenge.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Jechbi
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jechbi » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:19 am


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kc2dpt
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kc2dpt » Thu Jan 01, 2009 4:19 pm

- Peter


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Will
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Will » Thu Jan 01, 2009 7:25 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:17 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Ben
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:43 am

My personal opinion is that the Buddha talked about literal rebirth. It accords with my reading of the Suttas and Venerable Bodhi's 'A comprehensive manual of the Abhidhamma'.
However, I think the real issue is not so much whether rebirth exists or doesn't exist, is what is it that wanders on. And for me, this is the million dollar question. Not only understanding paticcasamuppada, understanding anatta, the process of becoming (and unbecoming) from an intellectual point, but developing naana, (insight/knowledge) with regards to the reality of rebirth and anatta directly through bhavana.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:05 am

Greetings,

It looks like it's not going to be much of a "debate" until someone arrives discounting any form of post-mortem continuance.

As an aside, sparked by something Ben said, I think it's worthwhile contemplating how one's kamma is carried from our past into the future... putting aside talk of lives for now. How does kamma created ten years ago carry on to today, what mechanism sustains and propels that kamma forward in time so that it can be experienced later as vipaka? When we think in these terms, it's interesting then to ask, would this same mechanism that moves kamma forward in this lifetime be the same mechanism that propels kamma forward to a subsequent bundle of aggregates? This is where I think dependent origination is an excellent expository device... applicable both here-and-now, and post-death.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:15 am

Last edited by stuka on Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:22 am

Last edited by stuka on Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:41 am

Greetings,

To see the primary list of 62 wrong views the Buddha did refute see...

DN 1 - Brahmajala Sutta
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/theravada/brahma1.htm

Note that all views concerning post-death were wrong because they posited a soul/atman to pass over (eternalism) or be destroyed (annihilationism).

Where there is no view of self, these wrong speculative views are not held.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Sat Jan 03, 2009 7:57 am


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Jechbi
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Jechbi » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:01 am


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stuka
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby stuka » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:08 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 03, 2009 8:11 am

Greetings Jechbi,

I mean that it is not ditthi, view... elimination of wrong views relating to self is imperative in attaining stream-entry.

However, there can still be a habitual tendency to think in terms of "I" etc. in which case that would be conceit (mana), which is only destroyed upon the attainment of arahantship.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

zamis
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby zamis » Mon Jan 05, 2009 7:44 pm

"You're almost at the end of your lease in this burning house and yet you continue latching onto it as your self. It tricks you into feeling fear and love, and when you fall for it, what path will you practice? " Upasika Kee Nanayon


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Will
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Will » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:20 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25

Element

Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Element » Mon Jan 05, 2009 8:56 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Mon Jan 05, 2009 9:49 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Will
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Will » Mon Jan 05, 2009 10:29 pm

A bodhisattva does not become weary of evil beings nor does he commit the error of bringing forth thoughts inclined to reject them and cast them aside. Avatamsaka Sutra, ch. 25


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