Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

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Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:50 pm

Snp 4.10 PTS: Sn 848-861
Purabheda Sutta: Before the Break-up of the Body
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu

"Seeing how,
behaving how,
is one said to be
at peace?
Gotama, tell me about
— when asked about —
the ultimate person."

The Buddha:

"Free from craving
before the break-up
[of the body],
independent
of before
& the end,[1]
not classified in between,[2]
no yearning is his.

Un- angered,
un- startled,
un- boastful,
un- anxious,
giving counsel unruffled,
he is a sage,
his speech
under control.

Free from attachment
with regard to the future,
not sorrowing
over the past,
he sees seclusion
in the midst of sensory contacts.[3]
He can't be led
in terms of views.[4]

Withdrawn, un-
deceitful, not
stingy, not
miserly, not
insolent, in-
offensive,
he doesn't engage in
divisive speech.

Not intoxicated with enticements,
nor given to pride,
he's gentle, quick-witted,
beyond conviction & dispassion.[5]

Not in hopes of material gain
does he take on the training;
when without material gain
he isn't upset.

Unobstructed by craving,
he doesn't through craving[6]
hunger for flavors.

Equanimous — always — mindful,
he doesn't conceive himself as
equal,
superior,
inferior,
in the world.
No swellings of pride
are his.

Whose dependencies
don't exist
when, on knowing the Dhamma,
he's in-
dependent;
in whom no craving is found
for becoming or not-:
he is said
to be at peace,
un-intent
on sensual pleasures,
with nothing at all
to tie him down:
one who's crossed over attachment.

He has no children
cattle,
fields,
land.
In him you can't pin down
what's embraced
or rejected.[7]
He has no yearning
for that which people run-of-the-mill
or priests & contemplatives
might blame —
which is why
he is unperturbed
with regard to their words.

His greed gone,
not miserly,
the sage
doesn't speak of himself
as among those who are higher,
equal,
or lower.
He,
conjuring-free,
doesn't submit
to conjuring,
to the cycling of time.[8]

For whom
nothing in the world
is his own,
who doesn't grieve
over what is not,
who doesn't enter into
doctrines
phenomena:[9]
he is said
to be
at peace."


Notes
1.Nd.I: "Independent of before & the end" = no craving or view with regard to past or future.
2.For discussions of how the awakened one cannot be classified even in the present, see MN 72 and SN 22.85-86.
3.Nd.I: "He sees seclusion in the midst of sensory contacts" = he sees contact as empty of self. This passage may also refer to the fact that the awakened person experiences sensory contact as if disjoined from it. On this point, see MN 140 and MN 146, quoted in The Mind Like Fire Unbound, pp. 116 and 113.
4.See AN 10.93.
5.Beyond conviction & dispassion — The Pali here can also mean, "A person of no conviction, he does not put away passion." This is an example of the kind of pun occasionally used in Pali poetry for its shock value. Other examples are at Dhp 97 and the end of Sn 4.13. For an explanation of what is meant by being beyond dispassion, see note 2 to Sn 4.6.
6.The Pali word tanhaya — by/through craving — here is a "lamp," i.e., a single word that functions in two separate phrases.
7.This reading follows the Thai and PTS editions: atta,m vaa-pi niratta,m vaa. The Burmese and Sri Lankan editions read, attaa vaa-pi nirattaa vaa: "self or what's opposed to self." The first reading seems preferable for two reasons: First, it follows the theme established in Sn 4.3 and Sn 4.4 (and also followed in Sn 4.15 and Sn 5.11) that the awakened person has gone beyond embracing or rejecting views. Second, the word nirattaa is found nowhere else in the Canon aside from the two other verses in the Sutta Nipata (Sn 4.3 and Sn 4.14) where it is offered as a possible alternative for niratta (released, rejected). As niratta is clearly the preferable alternative in Sn 4.3, I have adopted it here and in Sn 4.14 as well.
8."Conjuring, the cycling of time" — two meanings of the Pali word, kappam.
9."Doctrines, phenomena" — two meanings of the Pali word, dhamma.
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 16, 2010 11:46 am

Greetings,

who doesn't enter into
doctrines
phenomena [9]

[9] "Doctrines, phenomena" — two meanings of the Pali word, dhamma.

Interesting... I've seen Dhamma translated as one or the other of these definitions but never both at the same time!

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:28 pm

Hi, JcSuperstar and Retro -

My several years of suttas discussion with friends and friendly foes teached me the followings:
1. Less than half of them were comfortable reading the suttas by themselves. Yet, when I tried to give some guidance (or suggestion), they often disagreed.
2. Among those who thought they clearly understood a given sutta, they did not understand it the same way (sometimes, the difference was large).
3. Only a few participants could do cross-referencing. Only a few remembered their own conclusion they gave the last time.
4. More than half of the participants preferred the touch-and-go chatting rather than researching and asking questions in order to understand more.

So I sincerely hope the members of this discussion group are different. :focus:


Good luck!


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Jul 16, 2010 12:41 pm

Greetings Tep,

Well, it's certainly an expectation that if someone makes a statement they may be called upon to back it up... at minimum explaining their logic, but preferably, with reference to relevant source material.

I don't think it matters too much if people interpret things differently... in many ways it's good to hear alternative perspectives and come to a conclusion on your own, based upon the available evidence and perspectives.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby Phra Chuntawongso » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:10 pm

Hi Retro.
When I first started to study Buddhism,it was in the Tibetan tradition.
It was interesting to watch the different schools(I think there were about 4 of them)debate from different angles.
No right and no wrong.
I also believe that each school had to study the others way at looking at things.
With metta.
And crawling on the planets face,some insects called the human race.
Lost in time
Lost in space
And meaning
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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:14 pm

Retro: " I don't think it matters too much if people interpret things differently... in many ways it's good to hear alternative perspectives and come to a conclusion on your own, based upon the available evidence and perspectives."


ChiengmaiGreg: "It was interesting to watch the different schools(I think there were about 4 of them)debate from different angles. No right and no wrong.
I also believe that each school had to study the others way at looking at things."

It doesn't matter what & how each school looks at things, I guess, if we only "chat" in order to make friends and socialize with other people. No right and no wrong, just let it fly over your head and be happy. :tongue:

Truly,

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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 17, 2010 12:24 am

Greetings Tep,

dhamma_spoon wrote:It doesn't matter what & how each school looks at things, I guess, if we only "chat" in order to make friends and socialize with other people. No right and no wrong, just let it fly over your head and be happy. :tongue:

I think it goes a bit further than that though... it's not just some kind of random subjectivity.

Within the Theravada tradition, there have been learned and respected bhikkhus, past and present, who have understood and interpreted the Dhamma in ways which are mutually incompatible. So if within the ordained Sangha there is no "one True Dhamma" which is universally agreed upon, who would we be as lay Buddhists to insist upon, or even attempt to enforce our view of the "one True Dhamma" upon others? As galling as such enforcement may sound, others have indeed tried that in the past, and it wasn't pretty. We don't intend to repeat those mistakes here.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:22 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

who doesn't enter into
doctrines
phenomena [9]

[9] "Doctrines, phenomena" — two meanings of the Pali word, dhamma.

Interesting... I've seen Dhamma translated as one or the other of these definitions but never both at the same time!

Metta,
Retro. :)

maybe it just seemed to him to work both ways so he covered all the bases?
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tep,

dhamma_spoon wrote:It doesn't matter what & how each school looks at things, I guess, if we only "chat" in order to make friends and socialize with other people. No right and no wrong, just let it fly over your head and be happy. :tongue:

I think it goes a bit further than that though... it's not just some kind of random subjectivity.

Within the Theravada tradition, there have been learned and respected bhikkhus, past and present, who have understood and interpreted the Dhamma in ways which are mutually incompatible. So if within the ordained Sangha there is no "one True Dhamma" which is universally agreed upon, who would we be as lay Buddhists to insist upon, or even attempt to enforce our view of the "one True Dhamma" upon others? As galling as such enforcement may sound, others have indeed tried that in the past, and it wasn't pretty. We don't intend to repeat those mistakes here.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hi Retro --

That reply has opened up a can of worms! :?

So is it some kind of non-random (i.e. planned) subjectivity or, is it a random objectivity?

You seem to indicate that there are other true Dhammas besides the Buddha's Teachings! But such a doubt in the Buddha's Dhamma as the only true Teachings (i.e. leading to Nibbana that cannot be found in any other religions) is a defilement of the mind, that obstructs Stream-entry.

Truly,

Tep
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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 17, 2010 11:58 am

Greetings Tep,

dhamma_spoon wrote:You seem to indicate that there are other true Dhammas besides the Buddha's Teachings!

Not at all... but you may interpret something differently to how I may interpret something which may differ to how someone else would understand the Buddha's teachings. Spend a little time here and you'll see how different people, all with great reverence for the Buddha and his Dhamma, might interpret and understand his message in different ways.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:06 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:
'You seem to indicate that there are other true Dhammas besides the Buddha's Teachings!'

Retro: 'Not at all... but you may interpret something differently to how I may interpret something which may differ to how someone else would understand the Buddha's teachings. Spend a little time here and you'll see how different people, all with great reverence for the Buddha and his Dhamma, might interpret and understand his message in different ways.'

Hi, Retro -

I truly concur with you about different (and, often egotistical) interpretations of the true Teachings, because those also have been encountered by me. Continued discussion in that kind of environment is not only useless because it is endless, but also harmful to concentration because it distracts and agitates. :toilet:

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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:07 pm

Greetings Tep,

dhamma_spoon wrote:Continued discussion in that kind of environment is not only useless because it is endless, but also harmful to concentration because it distracts and agitates. :toilet:

Only if you allow yourself to be agitated by it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:21 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tep,

dhamma_spoon wrote:Continued discussion in that kind of environment is not only useless because it is endless, but also harmful to concentration because it distracts and agitates. :toilet:

Only if you allow yourself to be agitated by it.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Even if you can manage to look calm and wise sometimes, you can't help become agitated or a little frustrated some other times -- unless you're already free from aversion. :bow:

Why waste time, when it can be spent for a fruitful purpose.

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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jul 17, 2010 1:27 pm

Greetings Tep,

dhamma_spoon wrote:Why waste time, when it can be spent for a fruitful purpose.

I've learned a lot from other people challenging my views... certainly hasn't been a waste of time from where I'm sitting. If we're more interested in discovering the Dhamma than protecting our ignorant egos, such challenges should be a blessing.

Or to quote the sutta above...

He has no yearning
for that which people run-of-the-mill
or priests & contemplatives
might blame —
which is why
he is unperturbed
with regard to their words.

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sat Jul 17, 2010 2:26 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tep,

dhamma_spoon wrote:Why waste time, when it can be spent for a fruitful purpose.

I've learned a lot from other people challenging my views... certainly hasn't been a waste of time from where I'm sitting. If we're more interested in discovering the Dhamma than protecting our ignorant egos, such challenges should be a blessing.

Or to quote the sutta above...

He has no yearning
for that which people run-of-the-mill
or priests & contemplatives
might blame —
which is why
he is unperturbed
with regard to their words.

Metta,
Retro. :)


Tsk! Tsk! My friend Retro --

I think you are mistakenly quoting the behavior of "the ultimate person" :meditate:
["Seeing how, behaving how, is one said to be at peace?
Gotama, tell me about — when asked about — the ultimate person."]

If you already are "ultimate", then my congratulations to you :sage: .

Tep
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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:44 am

Greetings Tep,

No... just suggests that's what we work towards.

I suppose that actually brings us to the heart of this sutta study....

What good are all these descriptions of "ultimate persons", if not as a guide or an ideal to strive towards? Or is it just for us to be reverent?

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:16 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tep,

No... just suggests that's what we work towards.

I suppose that actually brings us to the heart of this sutta study....

What good are all these descriptions of "ultimate persons", if not as a guide or an ideal to strive towards? Or is it just for us to be reverent?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Hi, friend Retro -

I was waiting for this moment, when we reached a fruitful end!

Definitely, we -- earnest, purposeful Buddhists -- strive towards becoming ultimate persons, sooner (in this life) or later !

Thank you for taking the time. :smile:


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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Jul 18, 2010 3:15 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tep,

No... just suggests that's what we work towards.

I suppose that actually brings us to the heart of this sutta study....

What good are all these descriptions of "ultimate persons", if not as a guide or an ideal to strive towards? Or is it just for us to be reverent?

Metta,
Retro. :)

both as both are practical. contemplating the qualities of the Buddha is also a form of meditation.

http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/budhsati.html
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 11:56 am

jcsuperstar wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tep,

....

What good are all these descriptions of "ultimate persons", if not as a guide or an ideal to strive towards? Or is it just for us to be reverent?

Metta,
Retro. :)

both as both are practical. contemplating the qualities of the Buddha is also a form of meditation.

http://www.arrowriver.ca/dhamma/budhsati.html


For me contemplation of Buddha is a component of the "training" towards the ultimate goal. :stirthepot:

Truly,

Tep
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Re: Snp 4.10 Purabheda Sutta

Postby dhamma_spoon » Sun Jul 18, 2010 12:19 pm

dhamma_spoon wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tep,

What good are all these descriptions of "ultimate persons", if not as a guide or an ideal to strive towards? Or is it just for us to be reverent?

Metta,
Retro. :)


Definitely, we -- earnest, purposeful Buddhists -- strive towards becoming ultimate persons, sooner (in this life) or later !

Thank you for taking the time. :smile:


Tep
----


On the other hand, I am not clear how you might use the descriptions or qualities of an ultimate person (arahant) as a guide.

Tep
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