Anattā

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Prasadachitta
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Re: Anattā

Post by Prasadachitta »

Peter wrote:Nevertheless, there will always be people who keep insisting others try to give them that knowledge.
Yes indeed

May the effort to give said knowledge persist even if it cannot be given.

Metta

Gabriel
"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332
rowyourboat
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Re: Anattā

Post by rowyourboat »

"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
.....
He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The sabbasava sutta describes how certain types of thinking about the self just digs the hole a little deeper. The next bit goes onto explain that other types of attention reduces craving aversion and delusion (read satipatthana practice) and culminates in understanding the four noble truths in stream entry ('fermentations abandoned by seeing').

There's no point trying to come to a philosophical understanding about what the buddha said about this matter. Even if you hear a stream entrant explain it, you will only be able to grasp it with muddy hands and when the explanation is repeated it will be muddy. Best to resign to the fact that we cannot understand this using the usual tools but attempt to see it yourself using practice. That is when the conversation stops.
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha
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Jechbi
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Re: Anattā

Post by Jechbi »

rowyourboat wrote:Best to resign to the fact that we cannot understand this using the usual tools but attempt to see it yourself using practice. That is when the conversation stops.
Yeah, but ...

Never mind.
:namaste:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
elaine
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Re: Anattā

Post by elaine »

Dhammanando wrote: The arahant and the person of wrong view both resort to the term 'self', but whereas the one is misled by his concept, the other knows that dhammas are real but paññattis are not, and so is not misled.
What is an example of a paññatti? What's the difference between "not real", "conventional reality", and paññatti?

Can you please elaborate? Thank you.

Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu.
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Dhammanando
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Re: Anattā

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Elaine,
elaine wrote:What is an example of a paññatti?
Leaving aside consciousness, the 52 mental factors that arise with consciousness, the 28 material dhammas, and Nibbāna, everything else that can be denoted by a noun is a concept.
What's the difference between "not real", "conventional reality", and paññatti?
I would recommend that you read chapter viii of Narada's Manual of Abhidhamma:
http://buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/abhisgho/abhis08.htm

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.


“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
elaine
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Re: Anattā

Post by elaine »

Hello Bhante, all,

Thank you for the link. I don't have a formal education on Abhidhamma, so it'll take a while to read and understand the article. But I'll ask a few questions that have been bothering me.
Dhammanando wrote:Leaving aside consciousness, the 52 mental factors that arise with consciousness, the 28 material dhammas, and Nibbāna, everything else that can be denoted by a noun is a concept.
A human being is a concept (pannati). But Without the existence of a conceptual human being, what IS the meaning of these 52 mental factors? Imho, it will be meaningless, right? It doesn't matter whether they are ultimate or not, they have to "belong" to a human mind-made body, right?

Can these 52 mental factors "exist" on its own, without the presence of a human being?? Do these 52 mental states exist in the formless realm?


I think studying abhidhamma is similar to studying molecular genetics. It is useful in many ways (hopefully stem cells, genetic engineering can cure all diseases in the future). But I think abhidhamma is not "superior" compared to conventional Dhamma. I also think that if we study Too much Abhidhamma, we'll loose our sense of compassion, loving-kindness and sympathetic-joy. No?
nathan
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Re: Anattā

Post by nathan »

I very much appreciate this discussion. Thank you everyone.

There are two things I would appreciate further clarified if possible.

1. Given that the impersonality of anatta is a universal constant, I don't understand why there would necessarily be any inconqruity between a conventional or conditional cognition of and the absolute or ultimate cognition of not-self, essence-less-ness, insubstantiality or impersonality? There is of course the distinction that conditional cognitions are variously limited and the absolute cognition would be comprehensive, absolute and extends to the cognition of nibbana as anatta. Thus anatta is cognized as truly universal in that it pertains even to the non-conditionally dependent or nibbana even if in regards to nibbana it looses much of the context for it's significance.

2. I would like to better understand the expressions of doctrine on how the three marks might be said to pertain or relate to nibbana. That nibbana is in no way atta is quite straightforward. How it is that the other two characteristics could applied or related to the featureless and condition-less dhamma is difficult to understand. It can be more easily seen that there is a conditionally dependent relationship to impermanence; in the arising of dependent conditions for inclination to relinquishment giving rise to nibbana, and also upon exiting cessation. I don't see that nibbana could be determined to be dukkha or related apart from the absence of conception or perception of dukkha, to describe dukkha as characteristic of nibbana seems contrary to the nature of both dukkha and nibbana.

How can the characteristics be said to pertain to the duration of a cessation apart from reference to the remainder or the continuity of the form of a living body during cessation? Mind or at the least the mental quality of cognition, contact or clinging does not arise for the period of cessation and so (if at such a time there could even be said to be any) any other persisting mental qualities and the body are then not even objects of perception or cognition.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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cooran
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Re: Anattā

Post by cooran »

Hello Nathan, all,
Nathan said: 2. I would like to better understand the expressions of doctrine on how the three marks might be said to pertain or relate to nibbana. That nibbana is in no way atta is quite straightforward. How it is that the other two characteristics could applied or related to the featureless and condition-less dhamma is difficult to understand. It can be more easily seen that there is a conditionally dependent relationship to impermanence; in the arising of dependent conditions for inclination to relinquishment giving rise to nibbana, and also upon exiting cessation. I don't see that nibbana could be determined to be dukkha or related apart from the absence of conception or perception of dukkha, to describe dukkha as characteristic of nibbana seems contrary to the nature of both dukkha and nibbana.

Nibbana does not have the Three Marks. They all apply only to conditioned dhammas. Nibbana only has the Third Mark - No Self.

"In the Dhammapada there are three verses extremely important and essential in the Buddha's teaching. They are nos. 5,6, and 7 or chapter XX (or verses 277, 278 279).
The first two verses say:
'All conditioned things are impermanent' (sabbe sa.nkhara anicca) and 'All conditiioned things are dukkha" ( Sabbe sa.nkhara dukkha).
The Third verse says:
"All dhammas are without self" (Sabbe Dhamma anatta).
Here it should be carefully observed that in the first two verses the word sa.nkhara 'conditioned things' is used. But in its place in the third verse the word dhamma is used. Why didn't the third verse use the word sa.nkara 'conditioned things' as the previous two verses, and why did it use the term dhammas instead?
Here lies the crux of the whole matter'
The term sa.nkhara denotes the Five Aggregates, all conditioned, interdependent, relative things and states, both physical and mental. If the third verse said: 'All sa.nkharas (conditioned things) are without self', then one might think that, although conditioned things are without self, yet there may be a Self outside conditioned things, outside the Five Aggregates. It is in order to avoid misunderstanding that the term dhammas is used in the third verse.

The term dhamma is much wider than sa.nkhara. There is no term in Buddhist terminology wider than dhamma. It includes not only the conditioned things and states, but also the non-conditioned, the Absolute, Nirvana. There is nothing in the universe of outside, good or bad, conditioned or non-conditioned, relative or absolute, which is not inclluded in this term. Therefore, it is quite clear that, according to this statement: 'All dhammas are without Self', therfe is no Self, no Atman, not ony in the Five Aggregates, butnoowhere else too outside them or apart from them."
pp57-58 "What the Buddha Taught" by Walpola Rahula ISBN 1-85168=142-6 Oneworld Pblications, Oxford, England.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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nathan
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Re: Anattā

Post by nathan »

Chris wrote:'All dhammas are without Self', there is no Self, no Atman, not only in the Five Aggregates, but nowhere else too outside them or apart from them."

metta
Chris
Unquestionably. An - atta. One could say fully and indisputably anatta. Overcomingly anatta. It is only in relation to the conditions from which there can be temporary releases into cessation and re-arising into conditions of conscious perception after that it could be said there is impermanence. But it is not the nibbana that is impermanent, it is the conditions before and after which are impermanent. Nibbana has no direct relationship to impermanence, nibbana neither sustains nor is sustained by impermanence of any kind, right? Dukkha pertains to the impermanent only and so nibbana is not dukkha.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Eko Care
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Re: Anattā

Post by Eko Care »

elaine wrote: Sun Feb 01, 2009 12:49 am My understanding of 'atta' is, it is a solid permanent soul that travels from one life to another :alien:. Anatta mean that there is No permanent 'soul' that does this. I think, anatta does not mean that we are all pre-programmed action-and-reaction robot thingies that are 'beyond control' or totally out of control (but yea, some people are almost always out-of-control, e.g. me, sometimes). But I honestly believe that we can control ourselves, we just need a LOT of will-power! (But some people believe in no freewill/no control, they believe in some mysterious conditions that comes and goes naturally, but maybe that's the truth of the universe?).
In Atthakatha there is the phrase 'yantam iva abhisankhatam' which means we/5khandas are formed like a machine.
Which means fully inanimate(nijjiva) and conditioned.
At the same time it has volition and it is also conditioned and inanimate.
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Re: Anattā

Post by wenjaforever »

Only if you can control the overwhelming sensation of tusita can you develop the power of creation in nimmanarati :smile:
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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