Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Thanks Manapa.

I've printed it out and will read it once I've finished the current section of the book I'm currently reading.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Retro
retrofuturist wrote:Thanks Manapa.

I've printed it out and will read it once I've finished the current section of the book I'm currently reading.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks let me know what you think! and any suggestions, or differences of oppinion please tell I do not plan this to be a still work but am planning to add other opinions and views! hope some of the more knowledgeable can have a look also (AKA the Bhikkhus)

:coffee:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5611
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by robertk »

Clearly Knowing Our Bodily Actions]xxii
[3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert;
when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs...
when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking,
chewing, & savouring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing,
sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself
fully alert.
"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself or focused
externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains
focused on the body in & of itself.
Kammaxxiii is a fundamental concept underlying the Buddhist Practice, so no matter
what we do we should make ourselves fully alert, and focused so that we have
mindfulness at all times.
The translation you use is rather poor. I explain a little about the meaning of sat-sampajanna (fully alert in your translation).

Sati-sampajanna has 4 main uses in the Pali, From the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship ) notes that there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear comprehension)
1)puposefulness,
2)suitabilty,
3)resort, and
4)non-delusion -amoha , panna.

In the satipatthana sutta it is especially referring to the 4th type panna (amoha) and means that there is some insight into anatta. That is the only test of whether there is actual sati-sampajanna or whether there is mere knowing (without panna). When one tries to focus or be alert there is almost always citta with lobha, nothing to do with satipatthana. Thus the way of practice is subtle and deep.
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Robertk
robertk wrote:
Clearly Knowing Our Bodily Actions]xxii
[3] "Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert;
when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs...
when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking,
chewing, & savouring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing,
sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself
fully alert.
"In this way he remains focused internally on the body in & of itself or focused
externally... unsustained by anything in the world. This is how a monk remains
focused on the body in & of itself.
Kammaxxiii is a fundamental concept underlying the Buddhist Practice, so no matter
what we do we should make ourselves fully alert, and focused so that we have
mindfulness at all times.
The translation you use is rather poor. I explain a little about the meaning of sat-sampajanna (fully alert in your translation).

Sati-sampajanna has 4 main uses in the Pali, From the samanaphala sutta commentary (translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as Discourse on the Fruits of Recluseship ) notes that there are 4 types of sampajanna (clear comprehension)
1)puposefulness,
2)suitabilty,
3)resort, and
4)non-delusion -amoha , panna.

In the satipatthana sutta it is especially referring to the 4th type panna (amoha) and means that there is some insight into anatta. That is the only test of whether there is actual sati-sampajanna or whether there is mere knowing (without panna). When one tries to focus or be alert there is almost always citta with lobha, nothing to do with satipatthana. Thus the way of practice is subtle and deep.
Thank-you, but maybe you would like to contact the translator about his wording, I was with my limited understanding of pali looking at this translation which I believe is as good as any, plus I couldn't find one with a pali word for word line for line comparison in which to do that
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,

I'm a few pages through... the thoughts you present are interesting but I think the link you draw between certain lines of the text and topics such as eight worldly conditions and metta meditation seem a little tenuous. What you say about them is fair enough, but I just question their relevance to the relevant part of the Satipatthana text. They seem a little "bolted on", and because they don't necessary elucidate the text, they seem to act as a diversion.

You like your exclamation marks, don't you!

Metta,
Retro! :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

I'm a few pages through... the thoughts you present are interesting but I think the link you draw between certain lines of the text and topics such as eight worldly conditions and metta meditation seem a little tenuous. What you say about them is fair enough, but I just question their relevance to the relevant part of the Satipatthana text. They seem a little "bolted on", and because they don't necessary elucidate the text, they seem to act as a diversion.

You like your exclamation marks, don't you!

Metta,
Retro! :)
I suppose I do?!!!!!!!!!! lol writing isn't a strength of mine grammar spelling takes a lot more concentration than other things, so those who helped me edit might of missed the amount as they found it quite heavy going.

I'll look at these again, if you can give some more info on the specific parts, and how so, etc
Wonder if any Bhikkhus have had a look and wonder what their thoughts are?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Retro,
Just been looking through the work and if I am right about the section you are refering too you are being very kind when you say "seem a little tenuous" I would use far stronger words for the lack of coherent thought there. don't know how I missed it? possibly the comic thread can expand on that lol
reworked some of it but if and when you spot other parts let me know, and if you can clarify the part you were refering to that would be a help. and I took out some of the !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :cry:

Metta
Manapa
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

I'm a few pages through... the thoughts you present are interesting but I think the link you draw between certain lines of the text and topics such as eight worldly conditions and metta meditation seem a little tenuous. What you say about them is fair enough, but I just question their relevance to the relevant part of the Satipatthana text. They seem a little "bolted on", and because they don't necessary elucidate the text, they seem to act as a diversion.

You like your exclamation marks, don't you!

Metta,
Retro! :)
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,

I've read through the document and would be happy to share my thoughts on the Satipatthana practice, but not just yet, as I'm seeing and understanding the "Mental Qualities" in a slightly more profound light over the last day or two, so I might see where that takes me first.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Manapa,

I've read through the document and would be happy to share my thoughts on the Satipatthana practice, but not just yet, as I'm seeing and understanding the "Mental Qualities" in a slightly more profound light over the last day or two, so I might see where that takes me first.

Metta,
Retro. :)
let me know what you find :bow:
thanks
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,

Most of my thoughts went into the Satipatthana Sequencing thread, though I did just come across the following from Soma's translation of the commentary (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). Whilst I'm generally aware of the Buddha's use of the term "world", it wasn't until I read this that the following passage really clicked.
"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief."
Here's what the commentary said....
"In this world." In just this body. Here the body [kaya] is the world [loka], in the sense of a thing crumbling.

As covetousness and grief are abandoned in feeling, consciousness, and mental objects, too, the Vibhanga says: "Even the five aggregates of clinging are the world."

Covetousness stands for sense desire; and grief, for anger. As sense desire and anger are the principal hindrances, the abandoning of the hindrances is stated by the overcoming of covetousness and grief.

With covetousness are abandoned the satisfaction rooted in bodily happiness, delight in the body, and the falling into erroneous opinion which takes as real the unreal beauty, pleasure, permanence and substantiality of the body. With the overcoming of grief are abandoned the discontent rooted in bodily misery, the non-delight in the culture of body-contemplation, and the desire to turn away from facing the real ugliness, suffering, impermanence and insubstantiality of the body.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Retro
is this part the end of the sub/sections? just double checking
"Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating the feelings in the feelings, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating consciousness in consciousness, ardent, clearly comprehending (it) and mindful (of it), having overcome in this world covetousness and grief; he lives contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending (them) and mindful (of them), having overcome, in this world, covetousness and grief."
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

anyway finished the reediting just reading through making sure it is legible at least.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Manapa,
Manapa wrote:Hi Retro
is this part the end of the sub/sections? just double checking
I quoted the commentary from the section that refers to the summary contained within introduction the sutta itself, but it is repeated at the each of the sections except there he translates it as "in the world" as distinct to "in this world"... I'm not sure why (yet).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

I'll have a closer look
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
User avatar
Cittasanto
Posts: 6646
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:31 pm
Location: Ellan Vannin
Contact:

Re: Maha-Satipatthana Sutta

Post by Cittasanto »

just had a look at the commentary and the whole section you mention above, it is the section which is translated by Thanissaro as
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying in the Kuru country. Now there is a town of the Kurus called Kammasadhamma. There the Blessed One addressed the monks, "Monks."

"Lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said this: "This is the direct path for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. He remains focused on feelings... mind... mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, alert, & mindful — putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world.
the different translations used confused me a bit there as to where it was?
this section of the commentary you point out has given me some thoughts not 100% off what the comentary discusses but slightly different, I was going to finish reading today and repost a copy to see if it made more sense or just any sense at all but I am going to go over this part again.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Post Reply