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Practise vs suttra - Dhamma Wheel

Practise vs suttra

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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lppaefans
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Practise vs suttra

Postby lppaefans » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:47 am

All,

I have a question to all.

I am buddhist and i believed one buddhist must do personal cultivation. That is important. To follow the 5 precepts and 8 noble truths.
I am a man who is not well vserse in suttra at all but i like reading Buddha simple short quotes and great monks quotes, i will try to put in practicse.
I like those tudong monks trainning in North east thailand with AC Mun line down. They practise in mindfulness and mind awareness.

A group of buddhism friends then told me that by doing cultrivation alone is not enough. one must be well verse in suttra.
that also applies to two monk masters reply too. One told me to practise yet the other told me to read sutta...

My feels is : Are By knowing the suttra alone, is that important??
I am a man who only goes for practise and not theory.
anyway, i a begineer. :namaste: :namaste:

am i wrong??
by well verse in suttra but without praticsing, can one get enlighten?

hope to hear more views ya. :console: :console:

hahahahaha :jumping: :jumping: :jumping:

sadhu sadhu sadhu.

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Ben
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby Ben » Fri Jan 30, 2009 5:11 am

Hi lppaefans

For many years I practiced meditation without referring to the Tipitaka. But since starting to become familiar with the Suttas and some of the early commentaries, I feel my understanding has deepened profoundly. There is a natural complement between pariyatti (study) and pattipati (practice). So these days I would recommend to anyone to study the suttas as well as maintain their practice. If you want to, you are welcome to join our small sutta study group here at Dhamma Wheel. We are discussing one sutta every week with a link to an online version of the sutta: viewforum.php?f=25
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

(Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • •

e: [email protected]..

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lppaefans
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby lppaefans » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:14 am


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Cittasanto
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby Cittasanto » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:36 am

I think practice is more important than study, but study is useful.

a monk advised me a couple of years ago to study the Satipatthana Sutta as it is the principle teaching on Mindfulness. quite a few translations are on Access to Insight, and not to worry about the rest too much but a grounding in the suttas would be helpful a book by Bhikkhu Bodhi In the buddha words has a good cross section of suttas and access to insight has a good selection also.


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby kc2dpt » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:36 pm

- Peter


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bodom
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Fri Jan 30, 2009 2:44 pm

Ajahn Chah had a lot to say on this:

"Outward scriptural study is not important. Of course, the Dhamma books are correct, but they are not right. They cannot give you right understanding. To see the word anger in print is not the same as experiencing anger. Only experiencing yourself can give you the true faith."

"Read yourself, not books. Truth isn't outside, that's only memory, not wisdom. Memory without wisdom is like an empty thermos bottle - if you don't fill it, it's useless."

"Only one book is worth reading, the heart."

"Whatever we do, we should see ourselves. Reading books doesn't ever give rise to anything. The days pass by, but we don't see ourselves. Knowing about practice is practising in order to know."

"Do you know where it will end? Or will you just keep on studying like this? ...Or is there an end to it? ... That's okay but it's the external study, not the internal study. For the internal study you have to study these eyes, these ears, this nose, this tongue, this body and this mind. This is the real study. The study of books is just the external study, it's really hard to get it finished."

"You have already studied and read about paticcasamuppada (Dependent Origination) in the books, and what's set out there is correct as far as it goes, but in reality you're not able to keep up with the process as it actually occurs. It's like falling out of a tree: in a flash, you've fallen all the way from the top of the tree and hit the ground, and you have no idea how many branches you passed on the way down. When the mind experiences an arammana [1] (mind-object) and is attracted to it, all of a sudden you find yourself experiencing a good mood without being aware of the causes and conditions which led up to it. Of course, on one level the process happens according to the theory described in the scriptures, but at the same time it goes beyond the limitations of the theory. In reality, there are no signs telling you that now it's avijja, now it's sankhara, then it's viññana, now it's nama-rupa and so on. These scholars who see it like that, don't get the chance to read out the list as the process is taking place. Although the Buddha analysed one moment of consciousness and described all the different component parts, to me it's more like falling out of a tree – everything happens so fast you don't have time to reckon how far you've fallen and where you are at any given moment. What you know is that you've hit the ground with a thud, and it hurts!"

"What takes place in the mind is similar. Normally, when you experience suffering, all you really see is the end result, that there is suffering, pain, grief and despair present in the mind. You don't really know where it came from – that's not something you can find in the books. There's nowhere in the books where the intricate details of your suffering and it's causes are described. The reality follows along the same course as the theory outlined in the scriptures, but those who simply study the books and never get beyond them, are unable to keep track of these things as they actually happen in reality."

Study is important, but its not the whole practice. There should be a balance. A Middle Way.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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jcsuperstar
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby jcsuperstar » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:13 pm

i wonder what books lp chah is talking about...
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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clw_uk
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby clw_uk » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:15 pm

The best way is to find the correct balance between meditation and sutta study.
Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken

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cooran
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby cooran » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:28 pm

Hello all,

In the progress of the disciple, there are three stages that may be
distinguished: theory, practice and realization i.e. (1) learning
the wording of the doctrine (pariyatti), (2) practising it
(patipatti), (3) penetrating it (pativedha) and realising its goal.
(Nyanatiloka)

Scholars and Meditators AN VI.46

'Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Venerable Mahaacunda was
dwelling at Sahaajaati among the Ceti people. There he addressed the
monks thus:
"Friends, there are monks who are keen on Dhamma and they disparage
those monks who are meditators, saying: "Look at those monks! They
thing, "We are meditating, we are meditating!" And so they meditate
to and mediate from meditate up and meditate down! What, then, do
they meditate about and why do they meditate?' Thereby neither these
monks keen on Dhamma nor the meditators will be pleased, and they
will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the
multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and
happiness of devas and humans.
"Then, friends, there are meditating monks who disparage the monks
who are keen on Dhamma, saying: 'Look at those monks! They thing "We
are Dhamma-experts, we are Dhamma-experts!" And therefore they are
conceited, puffed up and vain; they are talkative and voluble. They
are devoid of mindfulness and clear comprehension, and they lack
concentration; their thoughts wander and their senses are
uncontrolled. What then makes them Dhamma-experts, why and how are
they Dhamma-experts?' Thereby neither these meditating monks nor
those keen on Dhamma will be pleased, and they will not be
practising for the welfare and happiness of the multitude, for the
good of the multitude, for the welfare and happiness of devas and
humans.
"There are Dhamma-experts who praise only monks who are also Dhamma-
experts but not those who are meditators. And there are meditators
who praise only those monks who are also meditators but not those
who are Dhamma-experts. Thereby neither of them will be pleased, and
they will not be practising for the welfare and happiness of the
multitude, for the good of the multitude, for the welfare and
happiness of devas and humans.
"Therefore, friends, you should train yourselves thus: 'Though we
ourselves are Dhamma-experts, we will practise also those monks who
are meditators.' Any why? Such outstanding men are rare in the world
who have personal experience of the deathless element (Nibbaana).
'And the other monks, too, should train themselves thus: 'Though we
ourselves are meditators, we will praise also those monks who are
Dhamma-experts.' And why? Such outstanding persons are rare in the
world who can by their wisdom clearly understand a difficult
subject."
----------------------------------
On first reading it, we may appreciate the reminders for tolerance and respect and wise speech in regard to those who appear to follow different paths. It should
also be noted how useless bickering and disparaging of others are.
How easily these can lead to pride and 'puffing-up'. These are useful reminders at any level.
When we just read a translation like this, it is easy to take 'scholars' for being those who are experts in book-learning without any 'inner' developed wisdom and it is easy to take 'meditators' for being those who do not study and who merely follow a 'practice'.

If we really wish to know more about these two groups (of monks) who
should be highly respected, we need to look at the Pali and
commentary notes, I think.

The Pali term for the first group is 'dhammayoga' . B.Bodhi adds 'AA
says the term refers to preachers (dhamma-kathika). The second group
of 'meditators'refers those who have attained jhanas. Obviously
neither group are arahants, otherwise there would not have been any
dispute.

From the commentary notes, it seems that the second group,
the 'meditators'have already realized the jhanas and they 'touch the
deathless (amata) element by nama-kaya, (The mental body
i.e.cetasikas)' The Dhammayoga bhikkus (the ones dedicated to Dhamma
or the Scholars)"penetrate the deep meaning of the khandas
(aggregates), the dhatus (elements) the ayatanas
(sense fields). They clearly see it by magga-citta
(i.e the citta that experiences nibbana) together with
vipassana panna. But here it should be panna which
penetrates by considering, and also panna on the level
of asking questions and learning" Commentary ends.

The last part of the sutta about the Dhammayoga Bhikkhus says 'Such
outstanding persons are rare in the world who can by their wisdom
(panna) clearly understand a difficult subject' (i.e realize
nibbana).

Obviously there is no suggestion that this is merely an intellectual
approach. How could Nibbana be realized if it were? Likewise, Those
who have jhana experience and have attained at least the first stage
of enlightenment should be highly respected.
(including comments from from a post by Sarah Abbott at:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastu ... sage/33934 )
==========================
Irrespective of whether one believes in a particular set practice,
or not, - the great importance of pariyatti, study, has been
emphasised by the Blessed One.

"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses
that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning,
transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will
lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these
teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should
train yourselves."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/su ... 0-007.html

---------
As you will see, the word "dhamma" in these passages seems to refer
to a very carefully crafted curriculum of teachings, and that there
was a great concern that this body of material be accurately and
precisely communicated from teacher to student. The realization in
personal experience and the integrity of intention also seem to be
areas of particular concern in the ancient context, as they are
today.

Teaching the Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:159
It is not easy to teach dhamma to others.
Concerning the teaching of dhamma to others, only after five things
have been internally established is dhamma to be taught to others.
What five?
1. "I shall speak a graduated discourse…"
2. "I shall speak a discourse that is insightfully-arranged…"
3. "I shall speak a discourse grounded upon caring…"
4. "I shall speak a discourse without motivation for personal gain…"
5. "I shall speak a discourse without disparaging myself or others…"
…thus is dhamma to be taught to others.

Confusing the True Dhamma Anguttara Nikaya 5:154
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:
1. do not carefully hear the dhamma,
2. do not carefully learn the dhamma,
3. do not carefully retain the dhamma,
4. do not carefully investigate the significance of the retained
dhamma, and
5. do not carefully know what is significant and practice the dhamma
according to dhamma.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:155
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five? When the monks:
1. do not learn the dhamma: [i.e., the] discourses, poems, refrains,
verses, utterances, stories, birth-tales, marvels, expositions;
2. do not teach to others in detail the dhamma as they have heard it
and as they have understood it;
3. do not make others speak in detail the dhamma as they have heard
it and as they have understood it;
4. do not recite together in detail the dhamma as they have heard it
and as they have understood it;
5. do not mentally think about and ponder upon, do not consider with
the mind, the dhamma as they have heard it and as they have
understood it.

Anguttara Nikaya 5:156
These five things, monks, incline toward the confusion and the
disappearance of the true dhamma. What five?
1. When monks mis-understand the discourses they have learned, mis-
arranging the words and letters, and then misconstrue the meaning of
the mis-arranged words and letters.
2. When monks mis-speak, do things that constitute mis-behavior, are
endowed with a lack of patience/forbearance, and possess little
talent for grasping the teaching.
3. When the monks who have learned much, who have received what has
been passed down, who have retained the dhamma, the vinaya and the
manuals, —they do not make others carefully speak the discourses;
and because of their lapse the discourses become something with its
roots severed, without a refuge.
4. When the senior monks live in luxury, take the lead in falling
into laxity, lay aside the responsibility of dwelling in seclusion,
and no longer put forth effort: to attain what has not yet been
attained, to achieve what has not yet been achieved, to experience
what has not yet been experienced.
5. When the community is divided. When the community is divided,
then there is shouting at one another, there is blaming one another,
there is closing in on one another, there is giving up on one
another. Those who are not clear do not get clear there, and the few
who are clear become otherwise.

Gradual Sayings (III, Book of the Fives, Ch XXI, Kimbila, §
2, ³On hearing Dhamma²):
Monks, there are these five advantages from hearing Dhamma. What
five?
He hears things not heard; purges things heard; dispels doubt; makes
straight his view; and his heart becomes calm. Verily, monks, these
are the
five advantages from hearing Dhamma.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---

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retrofuturist
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Jan 31, 2009 12:52 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby robertk » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:00 pm


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bodom
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:08 pm

It depends on peoples dispositions. Some are more inclined to book study while others more inclined practice. A good practice should include both. Sooo, we are back where we started, the middle way.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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kc2dpt
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby kc2dpt » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:14 pm

- Peter


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bodom
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:22 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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kc2dpt
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby kc2dpt » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:36 am

- Peter


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Cittasanto
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby Cittasanto » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:10 am



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:15 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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lppaefans
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby lppaefans » Tue Feb 03, 2009 10:28 am

All,

thanks for all comments...

my feels, as long we, the buddhist, we know where we are heading to and may it be well verse in theory or well practise in actions. our main motivations counts ya.

we follow the triple gems with understanding the 4 noble truth and with 8 noble paths as a guide..

everyone have the respective practise...

wish all have a good life training. :clap: :clap:

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bodom
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Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:42 pm

Last edited by bodom on Tue Feb 03, 2009 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/

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bodom
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Practise vs suttra

Postby bodom » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:10 pm

To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With mindfulness immersed in the body
well established, restrained
with regard to the six media of contact,
always centered, the monk
can know Unbinding for himself.

- Ud 3.5


https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html
http://www.ajahnchah.org/


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