Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

"Sabbe sankhara dukkha" can be translated as "all formations are suffering".

How does one come to see this truth for themselves experientially, rather than to simply accept it as a matter of faith, or as a working hypothesis?

For what purpose must it be known experientially to be true?
Sit in one position and do not move for an hour.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Virgo
Posts: 1546
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2010 10:52 pm
Location: United States

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Virgo »

'Rocks' are not dukkha. But the components that make up the concept 'rock' are all dukkha. Such as color, hardness, and so on.

Kevin
User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1706
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by acinteyyo »

Virgo wrote:'Rocks' are not dukkha. But the components that make up the concept 'rock' are all dukkha. Such as color, hardness, and so on.

Kevin
Just for clarification, do you think there is a "rock" independent from the components which make up the concept? Because when the components which make up the concept "rock" are all dukkha, how can it be that the concept is not dukkha? I mean, when everything which constitutes a thing is dukkha, how can the thing constituted by its conditions be not dukkha?
That would be like if someone's building up a house from wood and when it's finished, so that it actually becomes a house, it suddenly consists of stone.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:'Rocks' are not dukkha. But the components that make up the concept 'rock' are all dukkha. Such as color, hardness, and so on.
Would you consider "color, hardness, and so on" to be dukkha even if there was no sentience in the universe capable of making contact with these qualities?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:'Rocks' are not dukkha. But the components that make up the concept 'rock' are all dukkha. Such as color, hardness, and so on.
Would you consider "color, hardness, and so on" to be dukkha even if there was no sentience in the universe capable of making contact with these qualities?

Metta,
Retro.
I have yet to figure out how hardness, and so on or a rock can be an emotion/feeling.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to figure out how hardness, and so on or a rock can be an emotion/feeling.
We could throw rocks at your head and find out. ;)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:I have yet to figure out how hardness, and so on or a rock can be an emotion/feeling.
We could throw rocks at your head and find out. ;)

Metta,
Retro.
No. That use of a rock to cause pain may lead to dukkha for me.

By the way, it looks like I am the only one here who has directly addressed your question: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:By the way, it looks like I am the only one here who has directly addressed your question: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?
It's all too easy to assume we are "observing" this, when we are just "inferring it" on spurious grounds... that was part of my motivation for starting the topic.

So was your approach the one hour of motionless sitting? The thing is, any physically capable dimwit could do that and walk away with nothing to show for it... what is done during that session?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:By the way, it looks like I am the only one here who has directly addressed your question: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?
I've noticed that too. My excuse is that I've been a little under the weather lately and so have been keeping my powder dry for when I'm feeling a little bit better.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:By the way, it looks like I am the only one here who has directly addressed your question: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?
It's all too easy to assume we are "observing" this, when we are just "inferring it" on spurious grounds... that was part of my motivation for starting the topic.

So was your approach the one hour of motionless sitting? The thing is, any physically capable dimwit could do that and walk away with nothing to show for it... what is done during that session?
Of course, what I am suggesting requires a degree of mindfulness and concentration where one can simply watch the bodily sensation without comment. Sitting still for an hour, even in slouched in a nice cushy chair, one will see numerous small pains arise from which we would normally shift position to escape. We do that all the time with being barely aware, if at all, that we are doing it.
It's all too easy to assume we are "observing" this, when we are just "inferring it" on spurious grounds
With some experience one call tell difference between paying attention without comment (the first possibilty) and being lost in thought (the second possibility).
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Of course, what I am suggesting requires a degree of mindfulness and concentration where one can simply watch the bodily sensation without comment. Sitting still for an hour, even in slouched in a nice cushy chair, one will see numerous small pains arise from which we would normally shift position to escape. We do that all the time with being barely aware, if at all, that we are doing it.
On face value though, that just shows us that unpleasant feeling is dukkha, which no doubt we already knew.

I'm sure there's more to it than that though... would you care to join-the-dots for us a little? What is it specifically about all sankharas that is dukkha?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote: On face value though, that just shows us that unpleasant feeling is dukkha, which no doubt we already knew.
There is a difference between conceptually "knowing" that and seeing it, especially as it plays itself out in our body
I'm sure there's more to it than that though... would you care to join-the-dots for us a little? What is it specifically about all sankharas that is dukkha?
Depends upon what you mean sankhara; Again, the primary insight is that into impermanence. What ever it is that we experience changes and there really only six things that we experience - sound, sight, taste, smell, touch, and mind "objects."

Also, it depends upon what we mean by dukkha. Many meditation experiences (and experiences in life) are not painful.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
acinteyyo
Posts: 1706
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 9:48 am
Location: Bavaria / Germany

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by acinteyyo »

tiltbillings wrote:By the way, it looks like I am the only one here who has directly addressed your question: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?
Excuse me, but I did answer the question. In my first post on the first page my answer to the question
retrofuturist wrote:How does one come to see this truth for themselves experientially, rather than to simply accept it as a matter of faith, or as a working hypothesis?
was:
acinteyyo wrote:The only way I can think of which would enable someone to see it experientially is citta-bhāvanā.
Citta-bhāvanā can only be performed by practice, which is the only way to experience this truth directly. I said, that I use the aspect of anicca for insight and a samatha-method to try it for myself.
Your suggestion tilt, to sit still for an hour, does not enable someone to see "sabbe sankhara dukkha" but only "dukkha" IMHO. This may be helpful to see this or that being dukkha but I don't think it enables someone to see that all sankhara are dukkha.

best wishes, acinteyyo
Thag 1.20. Ajita - I do not fear death; nor do I long for life. I’ll lay down this body, aware and mindful.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote:Depends upon what you mean sankhara;
Let's go with a broad definition of any conditioned experience.
tiltbillings wrote:Again, the primary insight is that into impermanence.
...
Also, it depends upon what we mean by dukkha. Many meditation experiences (and experiences in life) are not painful.
But what if our experience was to oscillate between good and great. Where's the dukkha there? Or does sabbe sankhara dukkha only make full sense when contrasted against the bliss of nibbana which is unconditioned (asankhara)? And how would we come to experientially know that?
tiltbillings wrote:What ever it is that we experience changes and there really only six things that we experience - sound, sight, taste, smell, touch, and mind "objects."
Agreed.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?

Post by tiltbillings »

acinteyyo wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:By the way, it looks like I am the only one here who has directly addressed your question: Sabbe sankhara dukkha - how to observe this Dhamma?
Excuse me, but I did answer the question. In my first post on the first page my answer to the question . . . The only way I can think of which would enable someone to see it experientially is citta-bhāvanā.
You are correct, and I am sorry for missing your posting.
acinteyyo wrote:Your suggestion tilt, to sit still for an hour, does not enable someone to see "sabbe sankhara dukkha" but only "dukkha" IMHO. This may be helpful to see this or that being dukkha but I don't think it enables someone to see that all sankhara are dukkha.
How do you see "all"? Sitting still for an hour, mindfully with concentration, may certainly give one experience to some: the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. It is a start.


"Monks, I will teach you the all. And what is the all? The eye and forms, the ear and sounds the nose and odors, the tongue and tastes, the body and touch, the mind and mental phenomena. This is called the all. If anyone, monks, should speak thus: ' Having rejected this all, I shall make known another all' - that would be a mere empty boast." SN IV 15.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Post Reply