Nibbana

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Nibbana

Postby Will » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:38 pm

From the online Buddhist Dictionary:

Nibbāna
(Sanskrit nirvāna): lit. 'extinction' (nir + Ö va, to cease blowing, to become extinguished); according to the commentaries, 'freedom from desire' (nir+ vana). Nibbāna constitutes the highest and ultimate goal of all Buddhist aspirations, i.e. absolute extinction of that life-affirming will manifested as greed, hate and delusion, and convulsively clinging to existence; and therewith also the ultimate and absolute deliverance from all future rebirth, old age, disease and death, from all suffering and misery. Cf. Parinibbāna.

"Extinction of greed, extinction of hate, extinction of delusion: this is called Nibbāna" (S. XXXVIII. 1).

The 2 aspects of Nibbāna are:

(1) The full extinction of defilements (kilesa-parinibbāna), also called sa-upādi-sesa-nibbāna (s. It. 41), i.e. 'Nibbāna with the groups of existence still remaining' (s. upādi). This takes place at the attainment of Arahatship, or perfect holiness (s. ariya-puggala).

(2) The full extinction of the groups of existence (khandha-parinibbāna), also called an-upādi-sesa-nibbāna (s. It. 41, A.IV.118), i.e. 'Nibbāna without the groups remaining', in other words, the coming to rest, or rather the 'no-more-continuing' of this physico-mental process of existence. This takes place at the death of the Arahat. - (App.: Nibbāna).

Sometimes both aspects take place at one and the same moment, i.e. at the death of the Arahat; s. sama-sīsī.

"This, o monks, truly is the peace, this is the highest, namely the end of all formations, the forsaking of every substratum of rebirth, the fading away of craving, detachment, extinction, Nibbāna" (A. III, 32).

"Enraptured with lust (rāga), enraged with anger (dosa), blinded by delusion (moha), overwhelmed, with mind ensnared, man aims at his own ruin, at the ruin of others, at the ruin of both, and he experiences mental pain and grief. But if lust, anger and delusion are given up, man aims neither at his own ruin, nor at the ruin of others, nor at the ruin of both, and he experiences no mental pain and grief. Thus is Nibbāna visible in this life, immediate, inviting, attractive, and comprehensible to the wise" (A.III.55).

"Just as a rock of one solid mass remains unshaken by the wind, even so neither visible forms, nor sounds, nor odours, nor tastes, nor bodily impressions, neither the desired nor the undesired, can cause such a one to waver. Steadfast is his mind, gained is deliverance" (A.VI.55).

"Verily, there is an Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed. If there were not this Unborn, Unoriginated, Uncreated, Unformed, escape from the world of the born, the originated, the created, the formed, would not be possible" (Ud.VIII.3).

One cannot too often and too emphatically stress the fact that not only for the actual realization of the goal of Nibbāna, but also for a theoretical understanding of it, it is an indispensable preliminary condition to grasp fully the truth of anattā (q.v.), the egolessness and insubstantiality of all forms of existence. Without such an understanding, one will necessarily misconceive Nibbāna - according to one's either materialistic or metaphysical leanings - either as annihilation of an ego, or as an eternal state of existence into which an ego or self enters or with which it merges. Hence it is said:

"Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deed is, but no doer of the deed is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen."
(Vis.M. XVI)

Literature:

For texts on Nibbāna, see Path, 36ff. -
See Vis.M. XVI. 64ff. -
Anattā and Nibbāna, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 11);
The Buddhist Doctrine of Nibbāna, by Ven. P. Vajiranana & F. Story (WHEEL 165/166).
This noble eightfold path is the ancient path traveled by all the Buddhas of eons past. Nagara Sutta
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Re: Nibbana

Postby David N. Snyder » Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:01 pm

Thirty-three synonyms for Nibbana:

1. The Unconditioned
2. The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
3. The Uninclined
4. The taintless
5. The truth
6. The other shore
7. The subtle
8. The very difficult to see
9. The unaging
10. The stable
11. The undisintegrating
12. The unmanifest
13. The unproliferated
14. The peaceful
15. The deathless
16. The sublime
17. The auspicious
18. The secure
19. The destruction of craving
20. The wonderful
21. The amazing
22. The unailing
23. The unailing state
24. The unafflicted
25. Dispassion
26. Purity
27. Freedom
28. Non attachment
29. The island
30. The shelter
31. The asylum
32. The refuge
33. The destination and the path leading to the destination

(from Samyutta Nikaya 43)
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Will » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:52 pm

Very good list Ben. But the last one - "The destination and the path leading to the destination" is, I suspect, just the 3rd & 4th of the Noble Truths. In which case only "the destination" would be a synonym for nibbana.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Cittasanto » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:01 pm

Will wrote:Very good list Ben. But the last one - "The destination and the path leading to the destination" is, I suspect, just the 3rd & 4th of the Noble Truths. In which case only "the destination" would be a synonym for nibbana.


or maybe it is how I think zen says the gateless gate? it may be the case that the entering Nibbana destroys the path leading up to it, so realisation destroys the need for the path?

just a thought from your posting, don't know if it made sense or not?
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Re: Nibbana

Postby zavk » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:17 am

TheDhamma wrote: 33. The destination and the path leading to the destination


This one speaks to me the most too. Yes, I think Zen's idea of the gateless gate is an apt comparison. But I wouldn't interpret it to mean that 'realisation destroys the need for the path'. Rather, I see it as 'realisation is the path'. Or to use a cliched phrase, 'The journey is more important than the destination'. I really detest such cliches, especially when they are bandied about by self-help gurus. But I must say that this one connects with the above synonym somewhat. For me, this synonym reflects what I appreciate most about the dhamma, that it constantly denies me any absolute ground of certainty, that it impels me to constantly pull the rug from under my feet, so to speak. For me, it seems to say, 'One cannot but assume a destination if one is to walk the path (Why begin in the first place if there is no destination?), but yet, to posit the destination before one reaches it is to risk losing sight of the path (So what, don't walk? But if you don't walk how are you to know what the destination is like?).' Hmmmm.....this reminds me of Genkaku's thread. This for me is my biggest assumption about Buddhism.

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Re: Nibbana

Postby AdvaitaJ » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:03 am

As an atheist, I believed in the words of an old Steppenwolf rock song: "When you're dead, you're gone."

Now, reading Ajahn Brahm's book, he makes clear that there is no "you" to be gone when "you're" dead. Only a process or two that you think is you. Ok, I'm content to continue working on this, but what's got me in a quandary is trying to discern the distinction in the end result between the atheist end-result and nibbana. In either case, there's nothing left. As stated in the book, "Nibbana is the empty and natural process of body and mind doing its cessation thing."

Naturally, I'd prefer something more :D (minus the suffering, of course :D :D ) but I can intellectually accept nothingness. I guess my real question would be, "does Nibbana hold any promise of anything over and above the atheist view of complete and total cessation?" :?:

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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Thu Jan 29, 2009 3:12 am

‘If through revulsion towards ignorance, through its fading away and cessation, one is liberated by non-clinging, one is fit to be called one who has attained Nibbana in this very life.’

SN 12.16


‘What now is Nibbana? The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this friend is called Nibbana’.

SN 38.1


‘The removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion is the designation for the element of Nibbana…. is the Deathless. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way’.

SN 45.7
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Re: Nibbana

Postby clw_uk » Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:56 pm

Concepts such as "exsists" or "does not exsist" does not apply in reguard to Nibbana.

In reguards to the end of physical death if you say "I wont exsist" or "there is nothing" this is wrong view. If you say "I will exsist" or "there is everything" this is also wrong view.

This is because "exsist" implies a permanent self that carries on and "wont exsist" implies there is a self that ceases.

All things are not-self. The term "exsists" and "non-exsistence" do not apply.


Naturally, I'd prefer something more (minus the suffering, of course ) but I can intellectually accept nothingness.


When you "prefer something more" this is craving for exsistence. Craving is dukkha.

"does Nibbana hold any promise of anything over and above the atheist view of complete and total cessation?"


This again to me seems to be a grasp at wanting permanent exsistence. Of seeing a self in nibbana when there is none.

Also dont forget that atheism in its truest sense is just a disbelief in god or gods. It doesnt include a belief in annihilationism. This is something that developed out of it as people are used to thinking that if there is anything beyond physical death it can only be if there is a god or gods.

Either way you take it atheism is a speculative view, usualy born out of aversion.
Last edited by clw_uk on Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:28 pm

Nibbana exists. :jumping:
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sat Jan 31, 2009 3:35 pm

AdvaitaJ wrote: I guess my real question would be, "does Nibbana hold any promise of anything over and above the atheist view of complete and total cessation?" :?:

Regards: AdvaitaJ


There's only one way to find out for sure, right? :shock:
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby Jechbi » Sat Jan 31, 2009 4:47 pm

AdvaitaJ wrote:I guess my real question would be, "does Nibbana hold any promise of anything over and above the atheist view of complete and total cessation?" :?:

I think the question needs to be reframed as: "Does Nibbana hold any promise of anything over and above the athiest view of complete and total annihilation?" To which the answer is "Yes."

Then the question can be further refined as: "Does Nibbana hold any promise of anything?"
To which one possible answer is "No."

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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Sat Jan 31, 2009 11:32 pm

kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana exists.

Buddha said Nibbana was a dhatu or element.

:meditate:
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Re: Nibbana

Postby teacup_bo » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:35 am

kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana exists. :jumping:


Nibbana. :namaste:
Last edited by teacup_bo on Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:37 am

Element wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana exists.

Buddha said Nibbana was a dhatu or element.

:meditate:


Nibbana exists where, and how?

Suffering is also a dhatu.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:43 am

tiltbillings wrote:Nibbana exists where, and how?

Interrogation is also a dhatu. :spy:
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:45 am

tiltbillings wrote:Suffering is also a dhatu.

Faulty logic:

Suffering is a dhatu.
Nibbana is a dhatu.
Suffering is Nibbana.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby Element » Sun Feb 01, 2009 2:47 am

tiltbillings wrote:Suffering is also a dhatu.

Faultless logic:

Suffering is a conditioned dhatu
Nibbana is the unconditioned dhatu
A conditioned dhatu is not the unconditioned dhatu.
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Re: Nibbana

Postby teacup_bo » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:04 am

Image

As a tentative teaching by the great Luang Por Chah -

:buddha1:

Let your aim be Nibbana
http://www.abhayagiri.org/index.php/main/article/38/
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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:30 am

Element wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana exists.

Buddha said Nibbana was a dhatu or element.

:meditate:

Really? :console: Does a dhatu exist or not exist? :jumping:
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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Re: Nibbana

Postby kowtaaia » Sun Feb 01, 2009 3:39 am

tiltbillings wrote:
kowtaaia wrote:Nibbana exists.


Nibbana exists where, and how?



Where you aren't. It is when conditioning comes to an end.
Where thought arises and where it dissolves,
There you should abide, O my son.



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