I want to ordain..but....debt

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
fabianfred
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I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby fabianfred » Sat Mar 20, 2010 1:39 pm

I have been living here in Thailand for the last 18 years and have been a Buddhist for thirty years. I married 12 years ago and we have two children of 12 and 9 years. I have been getting one year permissions to stay renewed each year using my Army pension as proof of living expenses. This year the Pound is very low against the baht and i doubt if I will be able to qualify for renewal of permission to stay.
My wife suggested that i ordain as a monk.
She knows i am very immersed in buddhism here.
She knows I would be happy to ordain when my family duties are over.
I am 58.
She doesn't want to see me forced to return home to the UK to live in a very poor way, away from the family.
The only thing preventing my ordination is debt.
I have a bank loan running with six years left before paid up, and a credit card debt.
She says that my pension is gradually paying off the debt, and would continue to do so if I was ordained.
But I say that I would be telling a lie during ordination if I said I was free from debt, when I wasn't.
I know she doesn't think it is a serious matter...but i'm not convinced.

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Annapurna
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Annapurna » Sat Mar 20, 2010 4:44 pm

Hey, that is a lot of stuff.

Of course you can't say you are not indebted, when you are. That's fraudulous.

I'm also not sure if I understand you correctly.

Are you living off your pension, without going to work?

Then the solution for a family father with wife and kids would be that you go get a job, and work, if you wash dishes in a hotel, it doesn't matter. You're only 58, there must be something you could find. There is a lot of tourism in Thailand, perhaps you could work as a tourist guide. Or be a stay at home Dad, and your wife finds a job, after all she is a native speaker. No job is too low, if it gets you out of debt.

And to be frank, I find the suggestion of your wife a bit weird.

No loving wife wants her husband to become a monk, unless she wouldn't mind if he is not around anymore.When I put myself into your situation, I would feel like he is trying to get rid of me while using my pension.

Far worse, your children need a father.

I may be wrong, and I don't want to cause you pain, but this is what I thought.

Also, how come you have credit cards debts?

Who caused those?

Your wife or you?

Another point. I don't think money and stay problems are the right motivation for ordination.

But who knows, perhaps they accept you, and it is all you want to do from now on.

Talk to the monks there, perhaps. You must be absolutely open.
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Goofaholix
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Goofaholix » Sat Mar 20, 2010 8:07 pm

The purpose of the rule is that someone can't escape paying off their debt by becoming a monk, isn't it?

You would be setting up your finances so that your pension continues to pay off your debt would you not? So you debt will continue to be paid off.

I think that would be fine but best to talk about it with your potential preceptor, as long as you tell the truth it's his call.

As Annapurna already mentioned your reasons for ordaining sound pretty odd, but as I'm sure it's something you've been wanting to do for a while it's not just the circumstances that are dictating it.

Your wife does realise that a monk visa is only valid while you are a monk? You can't disrobe and use up the rest of your visa in lay life. There is also a bit of misinformation going around Thais that a foreign monk can gain citizenship, does she realise this isn't true?

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Cittasanto
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 20, 2010 9:43 pm

Hopefully one of our already ordained members would like to comment on this aspect in a better detail than us lay people can, but I would also echo your concern here, and if I was in the situation you describe would possibly see ordination as the easy route, given that your pension would continue to pay these off!

you may wish to speak to a monk you know and trust, they obviously cant give financial advice, but they can advise about the ordination in this regard.

although if it isn't a problem to ordain, this period maybe a good tester for you to sample the life, and a good time for you to work on your practice.
:anjali:


He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

fabianfred
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby fabianfred » Sat Mar 20, 2010 10:36 pm

I hope that i am not giving the impression that i wish to ordain simply in order to be able to stay in thailand, or to try and avoid family responsibilities. My pension would still go into my bank account and would be available to my wife. She is still young, 25 years less than me, but knows how much i like the dhamma. We have both gone on meditation retreats together and seperately to Wat Rampoeng, Chiangmai. I go to the temple every day to teach the dhamma to the foreign guests of MonkforaMonth project.
I realised that when i got married my life had come to a fork and if I hadn't married would probably of ordained in the future. I took temporary ordination for a week four years ago when they had a mass ordination here in Fang. My wife was not ready to let me stay longer....at that time.
For those who do not know, it is very difficult to work here, legally, for a foreigner.
The bank loan was to build our new house here four years ago...(started construction when i was ordained then....though it would be auspicious).... the credit card got hit later the same year when my mother became sick and later died, which entailed two trips home and on the second trip to the funeral i took my wife for her first visit to england.
We visited a forest monastery there in sussex, which i had visited several times before during my trips home. perhaps if I had to return home i could stay there as a lay helper.
I don't think my wife is trying to get rid of me....just that she'd rather I was ordained and living in a temple close to home than far away in england.

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Annapurna
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Annapurna » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:35 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Cittasanto
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 20, 2010 11:57 pm



He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.

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Goofaholix
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:05 am


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jcsuperstar
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:38 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

Virgo
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Virgo » Sun Mar 21, 2010 12:55 am



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jcsuperstar
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:18 am

สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Goofaholix
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:36 am


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jcsuperstar
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby jcsuperstar » Sun Mar 21, 2010 5:42 am

so youre saying that every buddha image is wrong? that they should be taken out of all temples etc? that theyre no different than heroin? seems absurd
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat

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Goofaholix
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Mar 21, 2010 6:15 am


fabianfred
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby fabianfred » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:13 am

Thanks for your interest guys...
I am the worlds worst businessman so have never been successful at making money. I am rich already....in the dhamma...just poor in wordly things...the better way to be in my opinion. My wife already works too to supplement the family income....and for her own interest....she is a cook....but we had a small photo studio for five years here. I taught her and it was her business, but I kept her company and surfed the web.... I taught her about photography and using a computer...skills she still has and she could already type in Thai and English.
I was hoping for a bit more info about the way debt is recognised for the ordination ceremony.

I took photos of an ordination ceremony today....it is that time of year...summer holiday...short term monks. Why is it that the 227 rules of a monk forbid the handling of money, but the first alms round after ordination is always cash, cash ,cash!!!

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Annapurna
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Annapurna » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:15 pm

Last edited by Annapurna on Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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Annapurna
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Annapurna » Sun Mar 21, 2010 1:23 pm

http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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appicchato
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby appicchato » Sun Mar 21, 2010 3:05 pm

Basically none of this pertains to the OP's question...but to see what he's contending with check out Fang, Thailand on google earth...

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Annapurna
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby Annapurna » Sun Mar 21, 2010 4:10 pm

I looked at it, not sure what I'm supposed to look for? Bäh, I don't get it. :embarassed:
http://www.schmuckzauberei.blogspot.com/

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mikenz66
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Re: I want to ordain..but....debt

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 21, 2010 7:35 pm



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