Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

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Virgo
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:[Yes, even someone with very high Parami could have a very bad wind disease, leading to temporary insanity, schizophrenia, and various other mental ailments. One may also have the kamma that one is taught that such things are correct to do (as Angulimala thought he was beings instructed to do these by a good teacher who he had faith in) even though it goes against ones natural instincts and so on. One could also be influenced by spirits, and so on. So I think it is certainly possible, yes.
It seems to take a lot of bizarre and elaborate explanations to maintain your view, Virgo... especially after all your repetition about panna (wisdom) being concurrent with the development of the paramis! Again, it just doesn't stack up.
Hi Retro,

Can you please explain further? I don't see anything bizarre being used to support what I said. I am honest with myself and with others. When I my points are shown to be wrong with sound logic, I concede them, adopt a more logical pov, and move on.
retro wrote: If you took Dhamma-Vinaya on its own terms rather than through the lens of tenet systems created by non-Sammasambuddhas, you might find that things slot into place well without these elaborately fantastic and grandiose explanations.
Everything fits into place fine for me.
retro wrote: The Dhamma isn't something elaborately fantastic and grandiose...
Sure it is. It is also unexcelled in the three times of past, present, and future.
retro wrote: it's just meant to lead to the cessation of suffering. It doesn't need "wow factor" to go with it.
I don't see where any "wow factor" has been added Retro. Can you please elaborate?


Kevin
Last edited by Virgo on Tue Mar 02, 2010 4:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:Hi Retro, I don't see the point of your post. I have already explained above both how the Ten Perfections are traced to the Suttas as well as elucidated how they they work both through my experience and the experience of others, ie. verified them through practice.
As I said earlier, I have no problem with the cultivation of the ten wholesome and beneficial attributes listed as paramitas. I am not debating the benefit of them - in fact, no one is. That is a straw man.

What is being debated is your statement that "it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, but only if you have been developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes already".

That was the relevance of my posting. This conclusion of your does not hold up to the Four Great References. By "carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it."

The Buddha said you should reject it. That you choose not to, is your decision to follow. Perhaps you choose not to follow the four great references because they are some kind of provisional hinayana teaching? :shrug: Again, that's your decision to make.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:Hi Retro, I don't see the point of your post. I have already explained above both how the Ten Perfections are traced to the Suttas as well as elucidated how they they work both through my experience and the experience of others, ie. verified them through practice.
As I said earlier, I have no problem with the cultivation of the ten wholesome and beneficial attributes listed as paramitas. I am not debating the benefit of them - in fact, no one is. That is a straw man.

What is being debated is your statement that "it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, but only if you have been developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes already".

That was the relevance of my posting. This conclusion of your does not hold up to the Four Great References. By "carefully studying the sentences word by word, one should trace them in the Discourses and verify them by the Discipline. If they are neither traceable in the Discourses nor verifiable by the Discipline, one must conclude thus: 'Certainly, this is not the Blessed One's utterance; this has been misunderstood by that bhikkhu — or by that community, or by those elders, or by that elder.' In that way, bhikkhus, you should reject it."

The Buddha said you should reject it. That you choose not to, is your decision to follow. Perhaps you choose not to follow the four great references because they are some kind of provisional hinayana teaching? :shrug: Again, that's your decision to make.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,

I explained earlier how Paramis do not disagree with, but rather agree with the Buddha's statements in the Satipatthana Sutta if that is what you are referring to.

Kevin
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Dan74 »

To me, your position, retro, is only tenable if one rejects rebirth and kamma or if one adopts a strong free will position. If one does not then there is a place where you are spiritually, physically, intellectually, etc. There are some things you and me will never understand, never appreciate in this lifetime, in other words - limitations due to our kamma. Lots of things we will never be able to do. Well, that's OK - we are where we are. And what's important is that we make the most of it.

But how much we can make of it is also determined by our kamma. So to me this whole question is one of kamma and free will/determinism. If one adopts a strong free will position, then it is possible to over-ride the kammic effects of past lives, etc. Some sources in Theravada and Mahayana suggest that you can. Some seem to suggest that you can't.

But as practitioners, subjectively we do experience choices. Important to make the right ones, that's all, as I see it. For the purpose of this debate it is important to be clear whether one is arguing from an absolute perspective (of an all-knowing being) or a relative one.

(Logically a strong free will position doesn't make sense to me and doesn't agree with the Buddhist notion of kamma. But certainly some methods are more efficient in uprooting defilements and developing wisdom than others. So in that sense practicing the Dhamma we come close to a strong free will position in the sense of becoming almost free of conditioning - (almost) free of kamma, perhaps!)
Last edited by Dan74 on Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:I explained earlier how Paramis do not disagree with, but rather agree with the Buddha's statements in the Satipatthana Sutta if that is what you are referring to.
What you have done is give lots of explanations that are completely untraceable to the suttas and should therefore be rejected.

In fact, in this entire discussion (despite having been challenged to do so by multiple people), I cannot recall you providing a single quotation from the Dhamma-Vinaya to support your view that "it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, but only if you have been developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes already". Not one. Not a single solitary quotation from the Buddha that even comes remotely close to supporting your view.

Yet, you espouse these words as if they were undoubtedly the truth... in spite of the four great references and despite the suttas about what constitutes slander of the Buddha.

Without a single supporting quote from the Pali Canon you give us tenet systems, scholastic papanca, wind diseases, infinite regresses, deference to non-Buddhas etc. and expect us to believe your view represents the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha? Come on.

If you expect me to think that your view is something other than Mahayana elitism, wrapped in Mahavihara clothing, I think the onus is now on you to try a little harder to provide a shred of evidence from the Dhamma-Vinaya to support your position. Anything...

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Virgo »

retro wrote:Perhaps you choose not to follow the four great references because they are some kind of provisional hinayana teaching? :shrug: Again, that's your decision to make.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,

I am a Vajrayana practitioner; that is true, but in terms of this forum I stick to the Pali Canon, and speaking in terms of the ancient Theravada tradition, keeping my points based in scriputres of only the Pali Tipitika, not the Mahayana Canon, or the Canon of any other school.

At times, I may bring up something about Mahayana, but only to make a point. I never argue or assert Mahayana views here. The view that the Perfections are needed for enlightenment is taken right from the Theravada Tipitika, not the texts of other schools (although, of course, all Buddhist sects actually assert this).

Kevin
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Atthakatha & Tika are strictly speaking not Tipitaka, Virgo.
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:At times, I may bring up something about Mahayana, but only to make a point. I never argue or assert Mahayana views here. The view that the Perfections are needed for enlightenment is taken right from the Theravada Tipitika, not the texts of other schools
"The view that the Perfections are needed for enlightenment"?

Now that's interesting... have you stepped back from your initial statement that "it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, but only if you have been developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes already."?

They're two very different propositions, Virgo... which are you arguing? Be direct.

And yes... if you find one single thing in the Tipitaka to support your view, please provide it.

:coffee:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Virgo »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:I explained earlier how Paramis do not disagree with, but rather agree with the Buddha's statements in the Satipatthana Sutta if that is what you are referring to.
What you have done is give lots of explanations that are completely untraceable to the suttas and should therefore be rejected.

In fact, in this entire discussion (despite having been challenged to do so by multiple people), I cannot recall you providing a single quotation from the Dhamma-Vinaya to support your view that "it is possible to achieve enlightenment in this lifetime, but only if you have been developing all of the perfections for many. many lifetimes already". Not one. Not a single solitary quotation from the Buddha that even comes remotely close to supporting your view.

Yet, you espouse these words as if they were undoubtedly the truth... in spite of the four great references and despite the suttas about what constitutes slander of the Buddha.

Without a single supporting quote from the Pali Canon you give us tenet systems, scholastic papanca, wind diseases, infinite regresses, deference to non-Buddhas etc. and expect us to believe your view represents the Dhamma as taught by the Buddha? Come on.

If you expect me to think that your view is something other than Mahayana elitism, wrapped in Mahavihara clothing, I think the onus is now on you to try a little harder to provide a shred of evidence from the Dhamma-Vinaya to support your position. Anything...

Metta,
Retro. :)
Retro,

I have shown that my views are in keeping both with the Suttas and with the qualifications for meeting Dhamma and Vinaya which the Buddha gave that you kindly provided. Furthermore, I linked to a whole online book full of quotes from the whole Tipitika about the importance of the Perfections. All it takes is a few clicks to read the whole book. Why post them all here?

Again and again you do not refute my points, but simply call them names.

Your assertions are ridiculous. The views I asserted here have nothing to do with Mahayana at all, and everything to do with the Ancient Theravada and it's Commentaries. The come from the Tipitika (the Pali one).

Have a nice day,

P.S. I don't come here to discuss Mahayana, only to discuss Theravada.

Kevin
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Virgo,
Virgo wrote:I have shown that my views are in keeping both with the Suttas and with the qualifications for meeting Dhamma and Vinaya which the Buddha gave that you kindly provided.
You have done no such thing, yet the opportunity remains for you to do so.
Virgo wrote: Furthermore, I linked to a whole online book full of quotes from the whole Tipitika about the importance of the Perfections. All it takes is a few clicks to read the whole book. Why post them all here?
Please don't throw a long treatise in the ring and expect us to do your groundwork for you. You're obviously a fan of the book... how about you find the parts that support your views?
Virgo wrote:The come from the Tipitika (the Pali one).
No they don't.

In good faith, I'm assuming you're not here to proselytize Mahayana doctrine. I hope this faith is justified.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro, Virgo,
retrofuturist wrote: What you have done is give lots of explanations that are completely untraceable to the suttas and should therefore be rejected.
To be fair, most of what Virgo is saying appears to me to be rather standard stuff that is in the Commentaries and quite likely the Abhidhamma (unfortunately I don't have a copy of the Abhidhamma Pitaka on hand...).

It's fine for you to not like the Commentaries, to use only the Vinaya and Suttas as a basis for your Dhamma practise, and to say so. However, you seem to be going a lot further than that, and implying that anyone who takes the Commentaries seriously as the starting point for their Dhamma study and practise is misguided.

Since the Commentaries were composed and assembled by various Bhikkhus who spent a lot more time studying the Dhamma than I so far have, I feel that it's a good idea to at least look seriously at what they say, and whether the advice is helpful to my practise.

Metta
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:However, you seem to be going a lot further than that, and implying that anyone who takes the Commentaries seriously as the starting point for their Dhamma study and practise is misguided.
Not at all... only that the commentaries are accountable to the Four Great References too. They are not exempt from such evaluation on any grounds of "authority". For what it's worth, I read the Visuddhimagga as a starting point for my Dhamma study too, and have read several translations of commentaries since. I like them, but I don't grant them intellectual monopoly over the Dhamma.
mikenz66 wrote:I feel that it's a good idea to at least look seriously at what they say, and whether the advice is helpful to my practise.
I agree entirely, and in fact have even quoted from the commentaries in this topic.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by tiltbillings »

Virgo wrote:Hi,

What people don't seem to realize is that practicing the Perfections goes hand and hand with, and is integral to the development of panna. . . . .
But there is nothing in the suttas that states that the perfections require many, many multiple lives to become ariya. You have not shown anything from the commentaries - or any text - that supports your position that the perfections require many, many multiple lives to become ariya. You claim it, but you really need to back it up.
Virgo wrote:I have shown that my views are in keeping both with the Suttas and with the qualifications for meeting Dhamma and Vinaya which the Buddha gave that you kindly provided.
You repeatedly state this, but you have not actually shown it to be so. You have given us no actual commentarial quote.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

Looks like this is the "Dhamma-Vinaya Only Forum", not the "General Theravada Discussion Forum" after all, huh?
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Re: Many lifetimes of paramita development needed to be aryan?

Post by BlackBird »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
retrofuturist wrote: Perhaps we could start counting from the time Angulimala started out in a career of mass murder?
We could. But I am not at all sure why we should. Do we have evidence that the time when he started his career as such he had hitherto not engaged in any sort of wholesome activities at all? In fact, evidence suggests the contrary, that even in that one life, he had lived for some time as an admirable spiritual practitioner. How about prior to that life? Again, we do not know.
Hi Bhante

Furthermore, if one wished, there is supporting evidence in the form of the Devadatta saga.

metta
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