Mindfulness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:As far as I can tell awareness is the fundamental, it defies description.
Then we have no idea of what it is.
My point in the above was to say that this preoccupation with "I" who is doing it all should either be done properly like in hua-tou meditation
?
or in analysing what is not "I" as in Theravada
Is that what Mahasi Sayadaw type vipassana meditation does?
or simply put aside while practicing mindfulness.
Is mindfulness the same as awareness?
Conventional preoccupation with it as in infinite regress is not productive.
Probably it is not a good understanding of the issue at hand.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Dan74
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Dan74 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:As far as I can tell awareness is the fundamental, it defies description.
Then we have no idea of what it is.
I guess it is what remains when all the fictions are put to rest. But it has never been missing. Makes sense?

We cannot conceive of it, but it is right here nevertheless.
tilt wrote:
My point in the above was to say that this preoccupation with "I" who is doing it all should either be done properly like in hua-tou meditation
?
I am not sure what you are querying here. Clearly "properly" was applied to both clauses.
or in analysing what is not "I" as in Theravada
Is that what Mahasi Sayadaw type vipassana meditation does?
Firstly I am not familiar with Mahasi method. Is it? Nor was I implying that there are only two ways. Sorry if I said that "analysing what is not "I" is the only method in Theravada while it isn't. But keep in mind that I was refering to the inquiry about who or what is being mindful, rather than the mindfulness practice itself. What does Mahasi Sayadaw teach about that?
Tilt wrote:
or simply put aside while practicing mindfulness.
Is mindfulness the same as awareness?
Only in the ultimate sense or when practiced to its completion, I guess. Our everyday run-of-the-mill mindfulness still has the subject and object, so it is not fully mindful.
tilt wrote:
Conventional preoccupation with it as in infinite regress is not productive.
Probably it is not a good understanding of the issue at hand.
It? :smile:
_/|\_
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote:As far as I can tell awareness is the fundamental, it defies description.
Then we have no idea of what it is.
I guess it is what remains when all the fictions are put to rest. But it has never been missing. Makes sense?

We cannot conceive of it, but it is right here nevertheless.
Mahayana stuff.
tilt wrote:
My point in the above was to say that this preoccupation with "I" who is doing it all should either be done properly like in hua-tou meditation
?
I am not sure what you are querying here. Clearly "properly" was applied to both clauses.
hua-tou meditation? Why would we have a clue as to what that is?

But rather than getting lost in all of this, let us get back to the the OP question - When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful? The problem is that it it assumes that there is some sort of "it" there. In a conventional sense, it is the individual that is being mindfull, but mindfulness is a part of the process of awareness/consciousness, viññana, and consciousness/awareness is always aware of something. Using mindfulness abit loosely, it is that aspect of awareness that arises before the "self" identification kicks in. The practice is the cultivation of that "bare attention" - at least in the Mahasi Sayadaw type practice.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Ben »

Hi MayaRefugee
MayaRefugee wrote:Greetings,

When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?

If the goal is to eventually eliminate the notion of an "I" and you actually do eliminate the notion of an "I" how could you say "I" is being mindful?

Thanks
The premise in your question seems to suggest that if one is being mindful then it refutes the doctrine of anatta by suggesting that there really is a self or some essence that oversees and is being mindful.
As others have said, being mindful is really just a process of attending to an object. When we are engaged in the practice of minfulness of this or that object, one may have the sense that "I" am being mindful, but the sense of "I" that we continue to identify with, is nothing but a computation aid. If I get time later tonight, I'll try and supply some quotes for you.
kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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ground
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by ground »

MayaRefugee wrote:Greetings,

When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?
If I want to get rid of a habit I am mindful of this habit and my motivation to get rid of it so that when it appears I will be in a position to immediately combat it.
If I want to practice mindfulness as defined in the Satipatthàna Sutta then I decide to do it and am mindful of this decision and the concepts contained in the sutta and if I am on the verge of forgetting I recall it/them and stick to it/them.
So generally: Mindfulness implies to stick to concepts, decisions, motivations in the sense of these being "present". These may be conclusions of own investigations or conclusions that someone else has made and taught (as in the case of the Buddha).
MayaRefugee wrote: If the goal is to eventually eliminate the notion of an "I" and you actually do eliminate the notion of an "I" how could you say "I" is being mindful?
You do not need to "say" you just have to be mindful!
Just being mindful does not necessarily imply concepts of there someone being who is mindful and there something being the someone is being mindful of. "Thinking about doing" is not the "doing".
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
MayaRefugee wrote:Greetings,

When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?
If I want to get rid of a habit I am mindful . . . Just being mindful does not necessarily imply concepts of there someone being who is mindful and there something being the someone is being mindful of. "Thinking about doing" is not the "doing".
Here we have a very different take on "mindfulness" than is usually taught in the Burmese style vipassana traditions.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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ground
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by ground »

tiltbillings wrote:
TMingyur wrote:
MayaRefugee wrote:Greetings,

When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?
If I want to get rid of a habit I am mindful . . . Just being mindful does not necessarily imply concepts of there someone being who is mindful and there something being the someone is being mindful of. "Thinking about doing" is not the "doing".
Here we have a very different take on "mindfulness" than is usually taught in the Burmese style vipassana traditions.
Interesting. Could anyone explain briefly in other words what "Burmese style vipassana" is?
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mikenz66
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by mikenz66 »

TMingyur wrote: Interesting. Could anyone explain briefly in other words what "Burmese style vipassana" is?
Tilt probably means the Mahasi Sayadaw school, including U Pandita and others:

See, for example:
http://aimwell.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... structions" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://aimwell.org/Books/Other/Guidelin ... l#Practice" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by tiltbillings »

TMingyur wrote:
Interesting. Could anyone explain briefly in other words what "Burmese style vipassana" is?
What Mike said.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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jcsuperstar
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by jcsuperstar »

i have no idea where this thread just went....

but back to the OP
When we say one is practicing mindfulness what is it that is being mindful?
first off "When we say one is practicing mindfulness" we are at that moment speaking in conventional terms so that we can understand each other.

when we are actually practicing mindfulness there is just mindfulness or at least attempting to be in a state of just mindfulness .
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ

the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
MayaRefugee
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by MayaRefugee »

Is there not an entity/subject/set of conditions that is/are conscious/aware of what is going on in the mind i.e. something like a judge that does the discernment/destroying of unwholesomeness/purification?
Reductor
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by Reductor »

MayaRefugee wrote:Is there not an entity/subject/set of conditions that is/are conscious/aware of what is going on in the mind i.e. something like a judge that does the discernment/destroying of unwholesomeness/purification?
There is, kind of.

The mind is aware of itself and all those things that enter it via the 5 senses. The mind is actually the result of a large number of conditions and is always changing because of conditions. It is not stable or permanent and is not self, but I suspect you would like to take it as self.

Even the standards that are taken as ideal by which the mind attempts to modify itself, even they are mental constructions which are not permanent. The mind changes under their influence, and they change under the influence of society at large, which is changing under the influence of time and the universe, which is also changing... and so on.

Consciousness lays at the root of the mind. It can be called impermanent because the objects it is aware of are always changing -- so rapidly it is hard to keep track of. If you sit for a little bit and try to see consciousness, you might notice that the consciousness that is evident can only be described in terms of what it is aware of. Unless you describe the object you can't really describe consciousness, except to say that it is aware; but what would it look like, be like, if it was not aware of all these vagrant objects and conditions that come with being alive?

Can you, should you, take an essentially unknown element as your 'self' when you don't really know it? As for everything else that you might call 'self': should you try to identify it as your true 'self' when its existence relies completely upon conditions that change and rest on the world at large, which you have very little input upon and control over?

Now, all this typing but I suspect you will still doubt the absence of an abiding entity. The best course of action, if you want to understand what the Buddha and all these Buddhists are getting at, is to sit quietly and take notice of the thoughts and feeling, memories and labels that flutter through your mind: look to see "Where did it come from - why did I become aware of it" and try to see "where did it go - why am I no longer aware of it" Perhaps you will quickly understand, perhaps not. But are you willing to actually look?

As and aside: weigh yourself in the morning, at noon and then at night. You'll notice that your weight is different each time. Why?

Anyway, I think I'm done.
Last edited by Reductor on Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
PeterB
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by PeterB »

MayaRefugee wrote:Is there not an entity/subject/set of conditions that is/are conscious/aware of what is going on in the mind i.e. something like a judge that does the discernment/destroying of unwholesomeness/purification?
No. Or perhaps Yes.
The only way to understand is to pick a meditation method. Receive instruction in it. Preferably hands on, and pursue it to its end. You can struggle for the rest of your life to pin down five philosophical fleas one under each finger. The trouble is you get the third one pinned and the first escapes. You pin down the first again and number four wriggles free. There is no end to speculation and discursive thought. In the end Buddhism is about bums on cushions.
MayaRefugee
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by MayaRefugee »

thereductor,

Thanks for your informative reply, I apologise if I am irritating you which it seems I am doing - :?

I have it in my head that it's possible to refine your motivations and mental formations to the point where they reflect rightness. I'm having trouble understanding how there cannot be something that possesses/sustains this rightness for repeated application.

I imagine The Buddha to have refined and maintained an arsenal of rightness enabling him to consistantly profess the specifics of the Dhamma and also teach/give answers/suggestions repeatedly to peoples troubles - I am interested in how he did this - IMO certain cues elicited certain responses and these responses to my way of thinking must of come from an arsenal of rightness.

I wonder what this arsenal of rightness would be?

If I am trying to see something as my "self" it would be this arsenal of rightness.

I guess here I'm moving more toward the nature of insight/wisdom that has been derived from mindfulness and trying to fathom where it is stored/what posseses this insight/wisdom or what allows it to be professed.

peterb,

I don't really want to "know" or practice anything just for my own benefit, I would one-day like to be able to use this "knowing" to help others untangle themselves from distress so formulating a way to communicate what I "know" is pretty important to me at this stage.

Peace.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Mindfulness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings MayaRefugee,
MayaRefugee wrote:I have it in my head that it's possible to refine your motivations and mental formations to the point where they reflect rightness. I'm having trouble understanding how there cannot be something that possesses/sustains this rightness for repeated application.
It's interesting... that's much like the prevailing views in India prior to the Buddha's enlightenment. The problem is though, according to the Buddha, that even this rightness is based on conditions, and thus impermanent. Therefore, it may be wholesome, but it's not going to lead to nibbana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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