Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Paññāsikhara
Posts: 980
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:Did I hear somebody whispering "Masefield"?
Not here, you don't. A very odd duck, a very odd thesis.
Hehe. Not from you, Tilt, elsewhere.
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19943
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by mikenz66 »

This Masefield?

http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j14/masefield.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mike
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by tiltbillings »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Paññāsikhara wrote:Did I hear somebody whispering "Masefield"?
Not here, you don't. A very odd duck, a very odd thesis.
Hehe. Not from you, Tilt, elsewhere.
I know, but I wonder if the "elsewhere" is coincidence.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Tilt,
tiltbillings wrote: I know, but I wonder if the "elsewhere" is coincidence.
I didn't know about Masefield until reading the link Mike provided (thank you, Mike).

I just decided I could not accept the idea of "Hearing Dhamma" by those Theravadans at DSG and I knew the Mahayanan intepretation of "Hearing Dhamma". And I read some suttas that described "Hearing". It was easy to come to the same conclusion (regarding "Hearing" I mean) as Masefield. Is no prove, though - there are always more explanations possible. The only prove I could accept would be to get such a transmission myself - but at least this "model" is compatible with the suttas and the iddhis and the general theory of the elements. And it is self-consistent.

This is not just a theoretical question. It leads to the question about right practice. If we assume that there is no metaphysical transmission involved reading the suttas would indeed be all that is required for right practice. No meditation, no sila...

I do not claim that there are no such transmissions and lineages in Theravada as in Mahayana. I said "It seems". Maybe there are some and I just have not heard about them. Has anyone here heard or heard about someone or recieved such a transmission in a Theravadan lineage?
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Sanghamitta »

In the sense that you are using it and if I have understood correctly I have never heard of such a transmission in the Theravada. There are those who see that as a positive of course.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Freawaru »

Hi Laura,
LauraJ wrote:
Freawaru wrote:I got the impression that most practitioners' priority is going to retreats and getting empowerments - not to practice themselves.
May I ask how or from whom you received this impression?
My impression was mainly based on reading the discussions at the Tibetan boards of e-sangha. I couldn't get them into agreement with what I read in books by Tibetan teachers such as Yeshe Thubten or HHDL himself. Too much personal reliance on the guru as a personality (who is - in theory - just a link to the Impersonal guru), too much reliance on secrets, too many statements like "someone without transmissions cannot understand". In my opinion the transmission is just a help, a crutch, until the practitioner can "walk" himself. For a moment one experiences how it should be, how it should feel, and this experience shows the way, now one can see by own experience what leads into the right direction and what not. The required changes can be achieved by oneself, without transmissions or empowerments.
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by pt1 »

Freawaru wrote: I just decided I could not accept the idea of "Hearing Dhamma" by those Theravadans at DSG and I knew the Mahayanan intepretation of "Hearing Dhamma".
Hi Freawaru, afaik, in Theravada just hearing is not a sufficient cause for liberation - something else is also required - wise consideration - see for example MN43:
"Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?"

"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
So hearing on its own is not enough. An example often given is that of the Buddha's attendant (the one before Ananda, can't remember his name now) who could hear the Buddha speak every day for many years, but he never reached liberation and in fact left the Buddha for another sect. The reason given is his lack of wise consideration on his part. I think the same reason can be used to counter the claim that there's a need for empowerment - he was with the Buddha all the time so the Buddha could have given him empowerment any time, but without wise consideration, there was no use. Similarly for the claim that a teacher needs to be a jhana master with supernormal powers - just look at Devadatta, he was a jhana master with great supernormal powers, but that didn't help him towards liberation. In fact there are suttas where the Buddha says that he was disgusted by supernormal powers(will try to get some of these references for you tomorrow).

Best wishes
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Sanghamitta »

There seems at first reading pt1, to be an assumption that the Buddha gave "empowerments"..but that on ocassion he held back from giving " empowerments". Perhaps you could point to a reference in the Tripitaka to this phenomenon ? Whether an act of commision or omission ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
User avatar
LauraJ
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by LauraJ »

Thanks for helping me understand, Freawaru.

Best,
Laura
Dharma Wheel
Buddha Blog

Conquer the angry man by love. Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness. Conquer the miser with generosity. Conquer the liar with truth. -The Dhammapada
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by pt1 »

Sanghamitta wrote:There seems at first reading pt1, to be an assumption that the Buddha gave "empowerments"..but that on ocassion he held back from giving " empowerments". Perhaps you could point to a reference in the Tripitaka to this phenomenon ? Whether an act of commision or omission ?
Yeah, sorry, hasty typing. There is no evidence in the canon (to my knowledge) that the Buddha gave empowerments, so the argument I was trying to make was that even if he did - the attendant could have gotten it a thousand times, and yet, it was of no use since there was no wise consideration on his part, so basically, hearing, special powers (the attendant had some of these) and empowerments if they even happened (which is what Freawaru was arguing I think) imo are not sufficient for establishing the right view and eventual liberation.

As promised, here's a bit more on:
- the Buddha's attendant Sunakkhatta
- Devadatta
- the Buddha being disgusted with supernormal powers - DN11

On the issue of empowerments (this is just my opinion) - I'd say that they can help in cleaning up the "energy body" in the same way that a doctor can help with cleaning up the physical body, but, the cleanliness of both bodies still doesn't help with insight. It can certainly help with samatha and consequent development of supernormal powers (and all bodhisattas must develop these, so I think empowerments are a legitimate practice in Mahayaha), but it is insufficient for developing right view, hence the emphasis on development of wisdom in Mahayana. In Thervada tough, it's mostly about insight/wisdom imo, so no need for empowerments, supernormal powers, and (some would even say) jhana mastery.

Best wishes
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Sanghamitta »

pt1 What " energy body" I dont seemed to have been issued with mine, Are they supposed to come as standard ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
pt1
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by pt1 »

Sanghamitta wrote:pt1 What " energy body" I dont seemed to have been issued with mine, Are they supposed to come as standard ?
Ahem, yes, in Theravada the "energy body" is a non-issue, but since Freawaru is practicing mostly Vajrayana (and we already had a few discussions on that topic on other forums) I thought it'd be politically correct to mention it, as it is a part of vajrayana teachings (and this is dhammic free-for-all section). In Theravada, the closest descriptions I found of energy body are the various types of winds mentioned in the Visuddhimaga and Bhesajjamanjusa. My guess is that the topic was considered part of medicine (hence the appearance in the casket of medicine) and thus not treated in the tipitaka as a dhamma topic, but by the time the teachings arrived to Tibet and China, the views changed... Anyway, if you're a Theravada practitioner, no need to worry about this, unless it comes up on its own and starts giving you problems, in what case it might be useful to study it a bit.

Best wishes
Sanghamitta
Posts: 1614
Joined: Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:21 am
Location: By the River Thames near London.

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Sanghamitta »

Well as a Theravada practitioner I will continue to assume that that the Dreaded Goom Boo is actually unreal. Therefore I will continue to studiously avoid cures for the Dreaded Gom Boo.
:smile:

:anjali:
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
Freawaru
Posts: 489
Joined: Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:26 pm

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by Freawaru »

Hi pt1
pt1 wrote:
Freawaru wrote: I just decided I could not accept the idea of "Hearing Dhamma" by those Theravadans at DSG and I knew the Mahayanan intepretation of "Hearing Dhamma".
Hi Freawaru, afaik, in Theravada just hearing is not a sufficient cause for liberation - something else is also required - wise consideration - see for example MN43:
"Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?"

"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
This still agrees with how Mahayana sees it. For correct "hearing" states of concentration and insight are necessary on the part of the student. The level seems to depend on the specific transmission (there are various). For the base level transmission one needs to be in a state of zhine (samatha) for example. The transmission does not work without it.
So hearing on its own is not enough. An example often given is that of the Buddha's attendant (the one before Ananda, can't remember his name now) who could hear the Buddha speak every day for many years, but he never reached liberation and in fact left the Buddha for another sect. The reason given is his lack of wise consideration on his part. I think the same reason can be used to counter the claim that there's a need for empowerment - he was with the Buddha all the time so the Buddha could have given him empowerment any time, but without wise consideration, there was no use. Similarly for the claim that a teacher needs to be a jhana master with supernormal powers - just look at Devadatta, he was a jhana master with great supernormal powers, but that didn't help him towards liberation. In fact there are suttas where the Buddha says that he was disgusted by supernormal powers(will try to get some of these references for you tomorrow).
I remember. But I don't think that "disgust" means for the Buddha what it means for us. It does not mean something wrong in general but something wrong for a very specific attainment. While the jhanas and iddhis are useful for getting close to Liberation one has to let go of them again for the final step. This "letting go" is, IMO, caused by what the Buddha calls "disgust". This disgust counters clinging.

Jhana master and iddhis do not imply wisdom and I would expect that to be necessary for "wise consideration". One needs both right concentration and wisdom if I understand Theravada correctly.

Do you have another Theravadan option of what "the voice of another" means than the one the DSG proposes?
User avatar
LauraJ
Posts: 151
Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?

Post by LauraJ »

Energy body?

The elements (air, water, etc) yes. But energy body? I'm not trying to be snarky, just very curious.

Thanks :)
Laura
Dharma Wheel
Buddha Blog

Conquer the angry man by love. Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness. Conquer the miser with generosity. Conquer the liar with truth. -The Dhammapada
Post Reply