Hehe. Not from you, Tilt, elsewhere.tiltbillings wrote:Not here, you don't. A very odd duck, a very odd thesis.Paññāsikhara wrote:Did I hear somebody whispering "Masefield"?
Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
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Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
My recently moved Blog, containing some of my writings on the Buddha Dhamma, as well as a number of translations from classical Buddhist texts and modern authors, liturgy, etc.: Huifeng's Prajnacara Blog.
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
This Masefield?
http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j14/masefield.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
http://www.enlightennext.org/magazine/j14/masefield.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Mike
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Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
I know, but I wonder if the "elsewhere" is coincidence.Paññāsikhara wrote:Hehe. Not from you, Tilt, elsewhere.tiltbillings wrote:Not here, you don't. A very odd duck, a very odd thesis.Paññāsikhara wrote:Did I hear somebody whispering "Masefield"?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Hi Tilt,
I just decided I could not accept the idea of "Hearing Dhamma" by those Theravadans at DSG and I knew the Mahayanan intepretation of "Hearing Dhamma". And I read some suttas that described "Hearing". It was easy to come to the same conclusion (regarding "Hearing" I mean) as Masefield. Is no prove, though - there are always more explanations possible. The only prove I could accept would be to get such a transmission myself - but at least this "model" is compatible with the suttas and the iddhis and the general theory of the elements. And it is self-consistent.
This is not just a theoretical question. It leads to the question about right practice. If we assume that there is no metaphysical transmission involved reading the suttas would indeed be all that is required for right practice. No meditation, no sila...
I do not claim that there are no such transmissions and lineages in Theravada as in Mahayana. I said "It seems". Maybe there are some and I just have not heard about them. Has anyone here heard or heard about someone or recieved such a transmission in a Theravadan lineage?
I didn't know about Masefield until reading the link Mike provided (thank you, Mike).tiltbillings wrote: I know, but I wonder if the "elsewhere" is coincidence.
I just decided I could not accept the idea of "Hearing Dhamma" by those Theravadans at DSG and I knew the Mahayanan intepretation of "Hearing Dhamma". And I read some suttas that described "Hearing". It was easy to come to the same conclusion (regarding "Hearing" I mean) as Masefield. Is no prove, though - there are always more explanations possible. The only prove I could accept would be to get such a transmission myself - but at least this "model" is compatible with the suttas and the iddhis and the general theory of the elements. And it is self-consistent.
This is not just a theoretical question. It leads to the question about right practice. If we assume that there is no metaphysical transmission involved reading the suttas would indeed be all that is required for right practice. No meditation, no sila...
I do not claim that there are no such transmissions and lineages in Theravada as in Mahayana. I said "It seems". Maybe there are some and I just have not heard about them. Has anyone here heard or heard about someone or recieved such a transmission in a Theravadan lineage?
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Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
In the sense that you are using it and if I have understood correctly I have never heard of such a transmission in the Theravada. There are those who see that as a positive of course.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Hi Laura,
My impression was mainly based on reading the discussions at the Tibetan boards of e-sangha. I couldn't get them into agreement with what I read in books by Tibetan teachers such as Yeshe Thubten or HHDL himself. Too much personal reliance on the guru as a personality (who is - in theory - just a link to the Impersonal guru), too much reliance on secrets, too many statements like "someone without transmissions cannot understand". In my opinion the transmission is just a help, a crutch, until the practitioner can "walk" himself. For a moment one experiences how it should be, how it should feel, and this experience shows the way, now one can see by own experience what leads into the right direction and what not. The required changes can be achieved by oneself, without transmissions or empowerments.LauraJ wrote:May I ask how or from whom you received this impression?Freawaru wrote:I got the impression that most practitioners' priority is going to retreats and getting empowerments - not to practice themselves.
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Hi Freawaru, afaik, in Theravada just hearing is not a sufficient cause for liberation - something else is also required - wise consideration - see for example MN43:Freawaru wrote: I just decided I could not accept the idea of "Hearing Dhamma" by those Theravadans at DSG and I knew the Mahayanan intepretation of "Hearing Dhamma".
So hearing on its own is not enough. An example often given is that of the Buddha's attendant (the one before Ananda, can't remember his name now) who could hear the Buddha speak every day for many years, but he never reached liberation and in fact left the Buddha for another sect. The reason given is his lack of wise consideration on his part. I think the same reason can be used to counter the claim that there's a need for empowerment - he was with the Buddha all the time so the Buddha could have given him empowerment any time, but without wise consideration, there was no use. Similarly for the claim that a teacher needs to be a jhana master with supernormal powers - just look at Devadatta, he was a jhana master with great supernormal powers, but that didn't help him towards liberation. In fact there are suttas where the Buddha says that he was disgusted by supernormal powers(will try to get some of these references for you tomorrow)."Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?"
"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
Best wishes
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Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
There seems at first reading pt1, to be an assumption that the Buddha gave "empowerments"..but that on ocassion he held back from giving " empowerments". Perhaps you could point to a reference in the Tripitaka to this phenomenon ? Whether an act of commision or omission ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Thanks for helping me understand, Freawaru.
Best,
Laura
Best,
Laura
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Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Yeah, sorry, hasty typing. There is no evidence in the canon (to my knowledge) that the Buddha gave empowerments, so the argument I was trying to make was that even if he did - the attendant could have gotten it a thousand times, and yet, it was of no use since there was no wise consideration on his part, so basically, hearing, special powers (the attendant had some of these) and empowerments if they even happened (which is what Freawaru was arguing I think) imo are not sufficient for establishing the right view and eventual liberation.Sanghamitta wrote:There seems at first reading pt1, to be an assumption that the Buddha gave "empowerments"..but that on ocassion he held back from giving " empowerments". Perhaps you could point to a reference in the Tripitaka to this phenomenon ? Whether an act of commision or omission ?
As promised, here's a bit more on:
- the Buddha's attendant Sunakkhatta
- Devadatta
- the Buddha being disgusted with supernormal powers - DN11
On the issue of empowerments (this is just my opinion) - I'd say that they can help in cleaning up the "energy body" in the same way that a doctor can help with cleaning up the physical body, but, the cleanliness of both bodies still doesn't help with insight. It can certainly help with samatha and consequent development of supernormal powers (and all bodhisattas must develop these, so I think empowerments are a legitimate practice in Mahayaha), but it is insufficient for developing right view, hence the emphasis on development of wisdom in Mahayana. In Thervada tough, it's mostly about insight/wisdom imo, so no need for empowerments, supernormal powers, and (some would even say) jhana mastery.
Best wishes
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Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
pt1 What " energy body" I dont seemed to have been issued with mine, Are they supposed to come as standard ?
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Ahem, yes, in Theravada the "energy body" is a non-issue, but since Freawaru is practicing mostly Vajrayana (and we already had a few discussions on that topic on other forums) I thought it'd be politically correct to mention it, as it is a part of vajrayana teachings (and this is dhammic free-for-all section). In Theravada, the closest descriptions I found of energy body are the various types of winds mentioned in the Visuddhimaga and Bhesajjamanjusa. My guess is that the topic was considered part of medicine (hence the appearance in the casket of medicine) and thus not treated in the tipitaka as a dhamma topic, but by the time the teachings arrived to Tibet and China, the views changed... Anyway, if you're a Theravada practitioner, no need to worry about this, unless it comes up on its own and starts giving you problems, in what case it might be useful to study it a bit.Sanghamitta wrote:pt1 What " energy body" I dont seemed to have been issued with mine, Are they supposed to come as standard ?
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Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Well as a Theravada practitioner I will continue to assume that that the Dreaded Goom Boo is actually unreal. Therefore I will continue to studiously avoid cures for the Dreaded Gom Boo.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Bhikku Bodhi.
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Hi pt1
Jhana master and iddhis do not imply wisdom and I would expect that to be necessary for "wise consideration". One needs both right concentration and wisdom if I understand Theravada correctly.
Do you have another Theravadan option of what "the voice of another" means than the one the DSG proposes?
This still agrees with how Mahayana sees it. For correct "hearing" states of concentration and insight are necessary on the part of the student. The level seems to depend on the specific transmission (there are various). For the base level transmission one needs to be in a state of zhine (samatha) for example. The transmission does not work without it.pt1 wrote:Hi Freawaru, afaik, in Theravada just hearing is not a sufficient cause for liberation - something else is also required - wise consideration - see for example MN43:Freawaru wrote: I just decided I could not accept the idea of "Hearing Dhamma" by those Theravadans at DSG and I knew the Mahayanan intepretation of "Hearing Dhamma"."Friend, how many conditions are there for the arising of right view?"
"Friend, there are two conditions for the arising of right view: the voice of another and appropriate attention. These are the two conditions for the arising of right view."
I remember. But I don't think that "disgust" means for the Buddha what it means for us. It does not mean something wrong in general but something wrong for a very specific attainment. While the jhanas and iddhis are useful for getting close to Liberation one has to let go of them again for the final step. This "letting go" is, IMO, caused by what the Buddha calls "disgust". This disgust counters clinging.So hearing on its own is not enough. An example often given is that of the Buddha's attendant (the one before Ananda, can't remember his name now) who could hear the Buddha speak every day for many years, but he never reached liberation and in fact left the Buddha for another sect. The reason given is his lack of wise consideration on his part. I think the same reason can be used to counter the claim that there's a need for empowerment - he was with the Buddha all the time so the Buddha could have given him empowerment any time, but without wise consideration, there was no use. Similarly for the claim that a teacher needs to be a jhana master with supernormal powers - just look at Devadatta, he was a jhana master with great supernormal powers, but that didn't help him towards liberation. In fact there are suttas where the Buddha says that he was disgusted by supernormal powers(will try to get some of these references for you tomorrow).
Jhana master and iddhis do not imply wisdom and I would expect that to be necessary for "wise consideration". One needs both right concentration and wisdom if I understand Theravada correctly.
Do you have another Theravadan option of what "the voice of another" means than the one the DSG proposes?
Re: Hearing. was Re: Mahamudra in Theravada?
Energy body?
The elements (air, water, etc) yes. But energy body? I'm not trying to be snarky, just very curious.
Thanks
Laura
The elements (air, water, etc) yes. But energy body? I'm not trying to be snarky, just very curious.
Thanks
Laura
Dharma Wheel
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Conquer the angry man by love. Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness. Conquer the miser with generosity. Conquer the liar with truth. -The Dhammapada
Buddha Blog
Conquer the angry man by love. Conquer the ill-natured man by goodness. Conquer the miser with generosity. Conquer the liar with truth. -The Dhammapada