Nibbana

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Boris
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Boris »

Bhante Dhammanando:
The abandoning of craving partly yields its effect at the time of the attainment of arahatta-phala, for example, by cutting off a variety of afflictive mental factors for the remainder of the arahant's life. It wholly yields its effect at the time of nibbāna without remainder. To assert otherwise is to ignore the fact that the first truth includes aging, sickness and death, to which an arahant is still subject. The first noble truth doesn't say "Aging, sickness and death are only dukkha if you're a puthujjana
I cannot find your arahat, Bhante :( . So please show me this arahat who is subject to death. Do you recognise him as a body?
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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cooran
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Re: Nibbana

Post by cooran »

Hello Boris,

First post on Dhamma Wheel? Welcome ~ tell us a little about yourself?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
Boris
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Boris »

Chris wrote:Hello Boris,

First post on Dhamma Wheel? Welcome ~ tell us a little about yourself?

metta
Chris
As to myself, I don't think that Tathagata is subject to death :tongue:
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Boris,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.
boris wrote:I cannot find your arahat, Bhante :( .
I'm not in fact the owner of any arahants. But suppose I were, why would you want to find him?
So please show me this arahat who is subject to death.
As far as I know they're all subject to death and the Buddha had no qualms about speaking of them as such.
  • "If, Aggivessana, a king's elephant dies in old age, well tamed, well trained, the king's old elephant that has died is reckoned as one that has died tamed. And so, Aggivessana of a king's elephant that is middle-aged. And too, Aggivessana, if a king's elephant dies young, well tamed, well trained, the king's young elephant that has died is reckoned as one that has died tamed. Even so, Aggivessana, if a monk who is an elder dies with the cankers destroyed, the monk who is an elder that has died is reckoned as one that has died tamed. And so, Aggivessana, of a monk of middle standing. And too, Aggivessana, if a newly ordained monk dies with cankers destroyed, the newly ordained monk that has died is reckoned as one that has died tamed."
    Dantabhumi Sutta, Horner trans.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
Boris
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Boris »

I'm not in fact the owner of any arahants. But suppose I were, why would you want to find him?
Bhante, in order to be I have to identify my self with something and ideas I was born, I will die are possible only when there is identification with a body. So you are owner of your imaginary arahat whom you put to death - first accusing him of being born. Jim Morrison did not remember such an event as being born. Neither I do. But Jim Morrison explained that it happened during one of his black out. I think this is a mistake :smile: It has never happened.
Birth and death are members of dependent arising and as such are structurally dependent on ignorance and can be present only as long ignorance is present.

So you have your quotations, Bhante, I have my quotations that about Tathagata which is not to be found even now and here.

The Buddha asked me to see the body : this is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self. I just have no choice, I have to reject such ideas as "I was born" and "I will die".
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

Nicolás Gómez Dávila
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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

boris wrote:
I have my quotations that about Tathagata which is not to be found even now and here.
That is really not the full picture, is it? And Ven Dhammanando did not claim what he quoted was the full picture.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Mawkish1983
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Mawkish1983 »

Birth :(
Aging :(
Sickness :(
Death :(
Sorrow :(
Defilement :(
Bumping old threads :(

I think I'll just practice.
Boris
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Boris »

tiltbillings wrote:
boris wrote:
I have my quotations that about Tathagata which is not to be found even now and here.
That is really not the full picture, is it? And Ven Dhammanando did not claim what he quoted was the full picture.
With bhava as condition, birth, with birth as condition death. But Nibbana is cessation of bhava now and here. With cessation of bhava, cessation of birth, with cessation of birth, cessation of death. It is full picture isn't it? With cessation of conceit "I am" even gods cannot trace Tathagata (see M22) Arahat is not a person who was born and who will die and after death he will reach Nibbana, rather he is now and here element of Nibbana. But if you imagine yourself to be a person in time and space, your natural tendency is to treat other individuals as persons.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

boris wrote:It is full picture isn't it?
Obviously, not as you are painting it.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Boris
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Boris »

tiltbillings wrote:
boris wrote:It is full picture isn't it?
Obviously, not as you are painting it.
What is wrong in it? And from which standpoint is coming you judgement? From one who has direct knowledge that nibbana is cessation of bhava now and here?
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

boris wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
boris wrote:It is full picture isn't it?
Obviously, not as you are painting it.
What is wrong in it?
Nothing, except it looks at the arahant from one perspective only. In that perspective there is no thing that can be said about the tathagata, but in a more mundane sense, which can be used to illustrate the tilakkhana, which is a legitmate of talking about things (but not the full picture), arahants, Buddhas and worldings, grow old, get sick, and die, which is illustrated quite graphically in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Boris
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Boris »

Shell we call the first just arahat or ariya perspective and the second one - more mundane, in your words - puthujjana perspective?
Is it not our job to change our perspective from the second one to the ariya perspective? One pretty famous theravada monk and scholar during "dyeing"process was shouting "I am dying, I am dying". Surely at that time he saw "self" or more simply himself as a subject to death.

Yes, I think Buddha can say :"I am old" and this is probably your mundane sense. The problem is so puthujjana really believes "I am so and so", I was born and I will die. Otherwise Buddha would not put so strong emphasis on disidentification "This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self". Who sees dependent arising sees Dhamma, so dependent arising is the most important perspective to acquire and in this perspective death is impermanent, conditioned and dependently arisen.
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

boris wrote:Shell we call the first just arahat or ariya perspective and the second one - more mundane, in your words - puthujjana perspective?
Only if you want to call the Four Noble Truths a "puthujjana perspective."
Is it not our job to change our perspective from the second one to the ariya perspective?
It is our job to pay attention to the context within which the Buddha is speaking.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Boris
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Re: Nibbana

Post by Boris »

So have a good dying -in mundane sense of course- I will stay on position that I was never born and as such I will never die in any sense, mundane or not.
Of course body is born and body will die but this is not my problem. If I see problem there is only one explanation - Still there is attachment to the body.
Word death applies only to the body. But when is ignorance it applies also to the self. What do you think, that misguided monk when shouting "I am dying" it was only in mundane sense?
The man who wants to avoid grotesque collapses should not look for anything to fulfill him in space and time.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Nibbana

Post by tiltbillings »

boris wrote: I will stay on position that I was never born and as such I will never die in any sense, mundane or not.
Certainly a lot of "I"s in that sentence, and unless you are awakened I would guess, not just life to life, but throughout the day there are a lot of "I"s dying and being reborn in the mind/body process you call Boris.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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