So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.
It is a very difficult thing. Essentially when I am failing to practice often or failing to give much effort I am very concerned about rebirth and such things but when my practice is very strong all my worries cease, including worrying about rebirth and related things and I start to form the wrong view that they are not true!
The effect is cumulative in both directions and proportionate to the amount I am practicing or failing to practice.
What can I do to keep my views correct?
The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Interesting. For me it was the other way around: the longer I've practiced the more I've become confident in rebirth. At this point, it's hard to conceive of things being any other way. Many of the others I've spoken to have the same experience. You're the first I've heard from to have the opposite.
I'd suggest just continue practicing without proliferating about whether rebirth is true or not. The strategies in MN 20 would be helpful for this, especially the third regarding ignoring them. It may be helpful to consider how your mind has been conditioned to think in these patterns. These thoughts come up because of that conditioning, that kamma. If it's something you've struggled with for a long time, it will take some time to settle down---if you give rise to the conditions that lead to that settling. Finally, it might be helpful to acknowledge your understanding of wrong view as wrong view as arising from the wisdom faculty. This may help you see there is no reason to beat yourself up or panic because you're heading in the right direction.
Good luck!
I'd suggest just continue practicing without proliferating about whether rebirth is true or not. The strategies in MN 20 would be helpful for this, especially the third regarding ignoring them. It may be helpful to consider how your mind has been conditioned to think in these patterns. These thoughts come up because of that conditioning, that kamma. If it's something you've struggled with for a long time, it will take some time to settle down---if you give rise to the conditions that lead to that settling. Finally, it might be helpful to acknowledge your understanding of wrong view as wrong view as arising from the wisdom faculty. This may help you see there is no reason to beat yourself up or panic because you're heading in the right direction.
Good luck!
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
SarathW wrote:I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)
Rebirth is not as important as getting an understanding of cause and effect by studying one's own actions and the repercussions that follow them. The task is not believing in rebirth, but experiencing kamma vipaka. That is fundamental Right View.
"But for practical purposes two kinds of right view stand out as primary. One is mundane right view, right view which operates within the confines of the world. The other is supramundane right view, the superior right view which leads to liberation from the world. The first is concerned with the laws governing material and spiritual progress within the round of becoming, with the principles that lead to higher and lower states of existence, to mundane happiness and suffering. The second is concerned with the principles essential to liberation. It does not aim merely at spiritual progress from life to life, but at emancipation from the cycle of recurring lives and deaths."--Bikkhu Bodhi, "The Noble Eightfold Path."
See MN 117
Last edited by paul on Sat Dec 10, 2016 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
My advice would also be what Mkoll suggests, put it aside and not proliferate about whether rebirth is true or not.
Here is a link to the Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View. You'll see there is much more there than views about rebirth. The main concerns being:
Here is a link to the Sammaditthi Sutta: The Discourse on Right View. You'll see there is much more there than views about rebirth. The main concerns being:
- • The Wholesome and the Unwholesome
• Nutriment
• The Four Noble Truths
• Dependent Origination
• Taints
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Thank you! I will read up on that and consider your advice.Mkoll wrote:Interesting. For me it was the other way around: the longer I've practiced the more I've become confident in rebirth. At this point, it's hard to conceive of things being any other way. Many of the others I've spoken to have the same experience. You're the first I've heard from to have the opposite.
I'd suggest just continue practicing without proliferating about whether rebirth is true or not. The strategies in MN 20 would be helpful for this, especially the third regarding ignoring them. It may be helpful to consider how your mind has been conditioned to think in these patterns. These thoughts come up because of that conditioning, that kamma. If it's something you've struggled with for a long time, it will take some time to settle down---if you give rise to the conditions that lead to that settling. Finally, it might be helpful to acknowledge your understanding of wrong view as wrong view as arising from the wisdom faculty. This may help you see there is no reason to beat yourself up or panic because you're heading in the right direction.
Good luck!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Thank you. Should I call it something else? Is it called rebirth in the suttas? Am I misunderstanding something?SarathW wrote:I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)
Last edited by zan on Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Makes sense. Thank you I will take a look at that sutta.paul wrote:SarathW wrote:I the idea of the re-birth is a conventional Dhamma and not ultimate Dhamma.
What is ultimate is the change. (you can call it re-birth if you wish)
Rebirth is not as important as getting an understanding of cause and effect by studying one's own actions and the repercussions that follow them. The task is not believing in rebirth, but experiencing kamma vipaka. That is fundamental Right View.
"But for practical purposes two kinds of right view stand out as primary. One is mundane right view, right view which operates within the confines of the world. The other is supramundane right view, the superior right view which leads to liberation from the world. The first is concerned with the laws governing material and spiritual progress within the round of becoming, with the principles that lead to higher and lower states of existence, to mundane happiness and suffering. The second is concerned with the principles essential to liberation. It does not aim merely at spiritual progress from life to life, but at emancipation from the cycle of recurring lives and deaths."--Bikkhu Bodhi, "The Noble Eightfold Path."
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Could it be possible that it is equally important to let go of the idea of rebirth being true as it is to let go of the idea of it being untrue?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
I've heard teachers say that thoughts should be known as thoughts -- impermanent blips that arise and pass that we often get all caught up in -- is it a good thought or a bad thought? Is it a true thought or a false thought? Is It a thought I should try to get rid of? Is it a thought I should tell my friends about? Is it a thought that makes me feel good about myself? Bad about myself? Rather than focus on the content of the thought, just know it as a thought. Of course, there are other instructions as well, but this might be useful.
Edit: So maybe as you practice more, you just aren't believing your thoughts as readily -- not necessarily a problem.
Just a thought; good luck.
Edit: So maybe as you practice more, you just aren't believing your thoughts as readily -- not necessarily a problem.
Just a thought; good luck.
Those who grasp at perceptions & views wander the internet creating friction. [based on Sn4:9,v.847]
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Actually, from ultimate sense this (the part I emphasized above) might be true because like everything else "rebirth" is also empty without any inherent existence of its own. Actually, rebirth, like anything else, is neither inherently real/true nor absolutely unreal/false. It is what it is, as it arises, as such. Kalakarama sutta might be relevant here:zan wrote:... Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.
Thus, monks, the Tathagata — being the same with regard to all phenomena that can be seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — is 'Such.' And I tell you: There's no other 'Such' higher or more sublime.
"Whatever is seen or heard or sensed
and fastened onto as true by others,
One who is Such — among the self-fettered —
wouldn't further claim to be true or even false.
"Having seen well in advance that arrow
where generations are fastened & hung
— 'I know, I see, that's just how it is!' —
there's nothing of the Tathagata fastened."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
Perhaps, along with whatever practice you are doing why not contemplate the following suttas, to name a few:zan wrote:What can I do to keep my views correct?
- Kaccayanagotta Sutta
- Kalakarama Sutta
- Bahiya Sutta
- Phena Sutta
-
dhammarelax
- Posts: 1087
- Joined: Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:59 pm
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Why to take a stance? In the way that I practice it doesnt make a difference if it exists or not.zan wrote:So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.
It is a very difficult thing. Essentially when I am failing to practice often or failing to give much effort I am very concerned about rebirth and such things but when my practice is very strong all my worries cease, including worrying about rebirth and related things and I start to form the wrong view that they are not true!
The effect is cumulative in both directions and proportionate to the amount I am practicing or failing to practice.
What can I do to keep my views correct?
Even if the flesh & blood in my body dry up, leaving just the skin, tendons, & bones, I will use all my human firmness, human persistence and human striving. There will be no relaxing my persistence until I am the first of my generation to attain full awakening in this lifetime. ed. AN 2.5
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
So just keep noting and don't grasp the thought of disbelief either? Makes sense.JohnK wrote:I've heard teachers say that thoughts should be known as thoughts -- impermanent blips that arise and pass that we often get all caught up in -- is it a good thought or a bad thought? Is it a true thought or a false thought? Is It a thought I should try to get rid of? Is it a thought I should tell my friends about? Is it a thought that makes me feel good about myself? Bad about myself? Rather than focus on the content of the thought, just know it as a thought. Of course, there are other instructions as well, but this might be useful.
Edit: So maybe as you practice more, you just aren't believing your thoughts as readily -- not necessarily a problem.
Just a thought; good luck.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
Well disbelief is said to be a spiritual obstacle. But I suppose neither belief nor non belief would be no obstacle?dhammarelax wrote:Why to take a stance? In the way that I practice it doesnt make a difference if it exists or not.zan wrote:So one of the spiritual obstacles is not believing in rebirth and such concepts. Normally I believe in rebirth but the more I practice and the better my practice becomes the stronger the wrong view gets that there is no such thing as rebirth and that such things are not real.
It is a very difficult thing. Essentially when I am failing to practice often or failing to give much effort I am very concerned about rebirth and such things but when my practice is very strong all my worries cease, including worrying about rebirth and related things and I start to form the wrong view that they are not true!
The effect is cumulative in both directions and proportionate to the amount I am practicing or failing to practice.
What can I do to keep my views correct?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: The harder I practice the worse my wrong views get, help!
It is not a matter of true or untrue.Could it be possible that it is equally important to let go of the idea of rebirth being true as it is to let go of the idea of it being untrue?
It is about the nature of birth.
Birth also impermanent, painful and not self.
===========
When he sees Birth as impermanent, gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when his mind is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated; when his cognizance is concentrated he knows and sees correctly; when he knows and sees correctly he becomes dispassionate; when he becomes dispassionate his greed fades away; with the fading away of greed he is liberated. When he sees Birth as painful, gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when his mind is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated; when his cognizance is concentrated he knows and sees correctly; when he knows and sees correctly he becomes dispassionate; when he becomes dispassionate his greed fades away; with the fading away of greed he is liberated. When he sees Birth as not self, gladness springs up in him; when he is glad happiness springs up in him; when his mind is happy his body becomes tranquil; when his body is tranquil he feels pleasure; when he has pleasure his cognizance becomes concentrated; when his cognizance is concentrated he knows and sees correctly; when he knows and sees correctly he becomes dispassionate; when he becomes dispassionate his greed fades away; with the fading away of greed he is liberated.
http://chozang.net/201%20ideas.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”