Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by tiltbillings »

catmoon wrote:maybe

F. The sects that were originally referred to as Hinayana are all extinct?
The use of hinayana to refer to other schools of Buddhism is a Mahayana sectarian classification. No school of Buddhism referred to themselves as hinayana. There is no objective reason to use that term in referring other schools of Buddhism, though one certainly can say that the Mahayana in talking about other schools of Buddhism called them hinayana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: I don't support the use of the word as a sectarian slam. I am questioning why the word shouldn't be used in its narrow, benign and correct form.
As I have said, the word has a meaning and function solely with the (Tibetan version of the) Mahayana, as the above quote I gave by Acharya Ray indicates. Solely within a Mahayana context the word hinayana has its place, but it has no place as an "objective" way of classifying other schools of Buddhism.

The reality of the word is that the "narrow, benign and correct form" is a later evolution of the term that has not supplanted the broad, sectarian, and malign aspects of the term, as it was originally coined and encased in its texts, and which are still used by some Mahayanists to include those schools that some Mahayana followers think are inferior to the Mahayana.
and won't accept that this usage isn't a slam at them and the tradition they adhere to, then I think its reasonable to suspect there are personal issues lurking in the shadow
.
The reality is, however, the term hinayana with all its attendant polemical, non-benign sectarian baggage, is not infrequently used by Mahayanists. It is not the latter "narrow, benign and correct form" that is being objected to or argued against. That is solely an internal Mahayana usage.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
tiltbillings wrote:The reality is, however, the term hinayana with all its attendant polemical, non-benign sectarian baggage, is not infrequently used by Mahayanists. It is not the latter "narrow, benign and correct form" that is being objected to or argued against. That is solely an internal Mahayana usage.
That is a particularly pertinent point give the OP's question...
I was posting on anouther forum and I used the term Hinayana. Some one said that it was a offensive term to use. I did not mean it as that. I had thought that Hinayana was a branch of Buddhism like Mahayana. Also I thought that Theravada was a branch of Hinayana much in the same way Zen or Tibetan is a branch of Mahayana. I remeber being told that Thereavada was the only surviving school of Hinayana. Am I correct in this understanding or have I been mislead?
It is obvious the sense in which A Medic had been introduced to the term as a Mahayana practitioner.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Tex
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by Tex »

No, I'm not offended by Hinayana, any more than I would be offended by being called a honky (racial slur against white people). They're just words.

I do think it's important to point out the error when people use Hinayana incorrectly, though, without getting offended by it.
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
pink_trike wrote: I don't support the use of the word as a sectarian slam. I am questioning why the word shouldn't be used in its narrow, benign and correct form.
As I have said, the word has a meaning and function solely with the (Tibetan version of the) Mahayana, as the above quote I gave by Acharya Ray indicates. Solely within a Mahayana context the word hinayana has its place, but it has no place as an "objective" way of classifying other schools of Buddhism.

The reality of the word is that the "narrow, benign and correct form" is a later evolution of the term that has not supplanted the broad, sectarian, and malign aspects of the term, as it was originally coined and encased in its texts, and which are still used by some Mahayanists to include those schools that some Mahayana followers think are inferior to the Mahayana.
and won't accept that this usage isn't a slam at them and the tradition they adhere to, then I think its reasonable to suspect there are personal issues lurking in the shadow
.
The reality is, however, the term hinayana with all its attendant polemical, non-benign sectarian baggage, is not infrequently used by Mahayanists. It is not the latter "narrow, benign and correct form" that is being objected to or argued against. That is solely an internal Mahayana usage.
THen we are in agreement. :smile:
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

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tiltbillings
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by tiltbillings »

Tex wrote:No, I'm not offended by Hinayana, any more than I would be offended by being called a honky (racial slur against white people). They're just words.

I do think it's important to point out the error when people use Hinayana incorrectly, though, without getting offended by it.
The issue, for me, is not getting offended by the word; rather, it is the distortion of the Theravada that goes with the baggage associated with the word.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: THen we are in agreement. ::
Yes.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by Paññāsikhara »

LauraJ wrote:
It is a bit of a curiosity to me, that very nice teachers I've met who don't have English as a first language have used the term Hinayana when talking about motivation for practice or motivation for enlightenment. And these people wouldn't ever put other Buddhists down, I feel sure about that. They seem like darn nice, really happy people. So it has been a little bit curious to me even though I just choose to avoid the word myself.
I think this issue has caused more than a few problems over the years.

As a translator, both written and oral, I am very often called upon to be the oral translator of a range of highly regarded Chinese Buddhist teachers to communicate to an English speaking audience. It is not at all uncommon when they way in which they may mean a word, and the way in which it comes out in a literal English translation, has a fair gap between the two. There are a number of factors here, too, culture, language, etc. etc...

Furthermore, in a range of English material put out by Buddhist groups who are also not native English speakers, and are trying to deal with multi-tradition English speaking Buddhists while themselves coming from single-traditional backgrounds, also leads to a range of problems. I have seen Chinese Buddhist dictionaries which translate 小乘 (= Hinayana) as "Theravada", partly because they have heard that it is not at all proper and correct to use the term "Hinayana" (as per general convention), but in the end, it makes an even greater mess of the situation!

It also pays to cut a little slack to those working across languages, don't jump the gun - there aren't too many native Sanskrit speaking Buddhists around, and to find the meaning intended behind an eight letter word.
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by catmoon »

Paññāsikhara wrote:
catmoon wrote:maybe

F. The sects that were originally referred to as Hinayana are all extinct?
May we ask, O Catmoon, what schools they were in the first place? :)

Certainly you may ask, Venerable One, but for goodness' sake don't expect a coherent answer from ME. I was just kiting an idea. My references are: It's something I heard a guy say somewhere a while ago. Impressive, yes?
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by JeffR »

Yes.

Although the sadness I feel is in compassion for the ignorance of the user.
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by Laurens »

I don't find the term particularly offensive personally, but I don't think it says much for the person saying it. I don't think a person who is advanced in Dhamma practice should be calling other sects a 'lesser vehicle' to be perfectly honest. It's not a very compassionate thing to do if you ask me.
"If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?"

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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by Emi »

To me, if someone were to refer to Theravada as Hinayana when speaking to me, I'd have to ask the reason why they'd stopped before the term 'Theravada', and gone with the word 'Hinayana' instead. I certainly wouldn't be thrilled. :tongue:
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by tiltbillings »

Emi wrote:To me, if someone were to refer to Theravada as Hinayana when speaking to me, I'd have to ask the reason why they'd stopped before the term 'Theravada', and gone with the word 'Hinayana' instead. I certainly wouldn't be thrilled. ::
One thing that is worth keeping in mind, which can sometimes complicate things, is that the term Theravada is not a substitue for the term hinayana. Sometimes people, who are aware of the problem with the word hinayana and want not to use it for fear of being insensitive, will use Theravada in place of it when they are referring to what would be called within a Mahayana context hinayana. In other words, the category that the Mahayana refers to as hinayana should not be called Theravada. It can get confusing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by Emi »

tiltbillings wrote:
Emi wrote:To me, if someone were to refer to Theravada as Hinayana when speaking to me, I'd have to ask the reason why they'd stopped before the term 'Theravada', and gone with the word 'Hinayana' instead. I certainly wouldn't be thrilled. ::
One thing that is worth keeping in mind, which can sometimes complicate things, is that the term Theravada is not a substitue for the term hinayana. Sometimes people, who are aware of the problem with the word hinayana and want to to use it for fear of being insensitive, will use Theravada in place of it when they are referring to what would be called within a Mahayana context hinayana. In other words, the category that the Mahayana refers to as hinayana should not be called Theravada. It can get confusing.
I understand where you're coming from, but if the person was aware of my being a follower of the Theravada tradition, and they were a follower of Mahayana Buddhism, I would see the usage of the term 'hinayana' as unnecessary - personally, it would see it as as hurtful as it would be to them if I were to tell them that their beliefs were 'lower' than mine.

Can't we just bury now what is essentially an redundant term? Entirely unoffensive alternatives exist - or we could just all call each other Buddhists and leave it at that.

These terms, words, tradition names, aren't they all attachments? :spy:
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Re: Do you find Hinayana offensive?

Post by pink_trike »

Emi wrote:
These terms, words, tradition names, aren't they all attachments? :spy:
They can be very strong attachments and are for many Buddhists. But they don't have to be. They can just serve as useful guide posts, lightly held.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

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Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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