"The Broken Buddha" by Ven.Dhammika and other scandals

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sanghamitta
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Sanghamitta »

catmoon wrote:Reading this thread really makes me wonder what an early Dalai Lama would make of the Western Buddhism of today. Would he find it horrifying? I wonder just how much things have changed.
Which is of course only relevant to those who see a Dalai Lama as one who has authority for them. Otherwise it is no different to wondering what St Augustine of Hippo would make of modern Buddhism.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.
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JeffR
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by JeffR »

poto wrote: I will say though, that it's not just that one Thai temple, there's also a local Sri Lankan temple that is pretty much all Sri Lankan with almost no Westerners. This is the problem I'm talking about. Temples that serve one ethnic group and only cater to that culture. I'm not saying that it's impossible to learn Dhamma at the ethnic temples, just that the way it's presented can push people away. It doesn't seem suited to the West and I would hope that one day it will be reformed.
The temple is typically the cultural and social center in these cultures, as well as a place to perform merit and be reminded of sila and mindfulness. Much the same as churches were for the new immigrants of 100-150 years ago. If you want to consider this a "problem", rest assured it is a problem with the view being taken or just plain ignorance.

There are many communities in the rural midwest that will have two or more churches 100-150 years old of the same denomination, built to serve their different and respective cultures (French/German, etc.) of the new immigrants of THAT time period.

I haven't read the book that is the topic of this thread; however, there is no benefit in criticizing people coming to live in a strange land for bringing their culture with them. I have been to local Lao, Thai, and Cambodian temples and have always been welcome. Great places for cultural learning and learning the basics of Buddhism as practiced in the culture of the country represented. For practicing the Dhamma, I've found it more beneficial to stick with non-cultural based centers. Even these have rules, such as removing shoes and being quiet during meditation sessions.

-Jeff :namaste:
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
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alexx_2010
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by alexx_2010 »

Thanks for this post.
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bodhabill
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by bodhabill »

Postby JeffR » Sun Nov 22, 2009 4:03 am

poto wrote:I will say though, that it's not just that one Thai temple, there's also a local Sri Lankan temple that is pretty much all Sri Lankan with almost no Westerners. This is the problem I'm talking about. Temples that serve one ethnic group and only cater to that culture. I'm not saying that it's impossible to learn Dhamma at the ethnic temples, just that the way it's presented can push people away. It doesn't seem suited to the West and I would hope that one day it will be reformed.

The temple is typically the cultural and social center in these cultures, as well as a place to perform merit and be reminded of sila and mindfulness. Much the same as churches were for the new immigrants of 100-150 years ago. If you want to consider this a "problem", rest assured it is a problem with the view being taken or just plain ignorance.

There are many communities in the rural midwest that will have two or more churches 100-150 years old of the same denomination, built to serve their different and respective cultures (French/German, etc.) of the new immigrants of THAT time period.

I haven't read the book that is the topic of this thread; however, there is no benefit in criticizing people coming to live in a strange land for bringing their culture with them. I have been to local Lao, Thai, and Cambodian temples and have always been welcome. Great places for cultural learning and learning the basics of Buddhism as practiced in the culture of the country represented. For practicing the Dhamma, I've found it more beneficial to stick with non-cultural based centers. Even these have rules, such as removing shoes and being quiet during meditation sessions.
Agree JeffR

I attended Thai and Laotian monasteries and found it to be a wonderful cultural experience and a good introduction to Buddhism

But due to the cultural / ritual veneer I had to finally seek out a non cultural monastery to further my Dhamma studies, I was extremely lucky to have a monk from the local Laotian temple who understood my needs and introduced me to a monastery in the Thai tradition run by western monks

With Metta
Bill

PS Agree, excellent topic, and I'm off to read the book now
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm
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retrofuturist
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S.Dhammika's "The Broken Buddha"

Post by retrofuturist »

[EDIT: Merged into existing topic]

Greetings,

I was wondering if anyone here had read...

THE BROKEN BUDDHA: Critical Reflections on Theravada and a Plea for a New Buddhism
By S. Dhammika.
http://www.buddhistische-gesellschaft-b ... dhanew.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

... and what they thought of it.

I think the link above points to the latest version of this document, but there seem to have been a few iterations so I'm not entirely sure. (It could still do with a good proof read).

It certainly raised a few interesting points, and while it is unashamedly focusing on the negative (stating that there are already plenty of materials focusing exclusively on the positive) I think it provides a bit of a welcome wake-up call (though I'm not too thrilled about his suggestions for what this 'new Buddhism' might look like).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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jcsuperstar
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Re: S.Dhammika's "The Broken Buddha"

Post by jcsuperstar »

i swear we've had this thread already... or was that the old forum?
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tiltbillings
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Re: S.Dhammika's "The Broken Buddha"

Post by tiltbillings »

jcsuperstar wrote:i swear we've had this thread already... or was that the old forum?
There certainly was one on the Gray Forum.

And one here:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ken+Buddha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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christopher:::
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by christopher::: »

Many excellent posts in this thread! Very helpful to read.

:anjali:
"As Buddhists, we should aim to develop relationships that are not predominated by grasping and clinging. Our relationships should be characterised by the brahmaviharas of metta (loving kindness), mudita (sympathetic joy), karuna (compassion), and upekkha (equanimity)."
~post by Ben, Jul 02, 2009
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Kim OHara
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Re: S.Dhammika's "The Broken Buddha"

Post by Kim OHara »

tiltbillings wrote:
jcsuperstar wrote:i swear we've had this thread already... or was that the old forum?
There certainly was one on the Gray Forum.
And one here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ken+Buddha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Perhaps this thread should be tagged on to the older one?
There's another one that is relevant but can be allowed to sleep in peace - Two Naked Buddhas http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3058.
The relevance is that Harrison's Naked Buddha is very similar in origin and intent to The Broken Buddha, from what I've read of the latter. (I missed the older thread - now making up for it but have only read the first 10 pages or so.)

:namaste:
Kim
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retrofuturist
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Aha... I thought there was an existing topic on this... but I wasn't sure if I was getting confused with the old topic(s) at E-Sangha.

What I found most disconcerting about this was that rather than the relationship between laity and monks being symbiotic, much of it seems to have become self-destructive through the institutionalization of merit-making. Another concern I saw was the inability for there to be a Buddhism that's not inextricably linked to local customs, behaviours and sensibilities... with the Dhamma often taking a back-seat to these regional beliefs. It's certainly given me a thing or two to think about.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Kim OHara
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Kim OHara »

Okay, Retro, I've read it now. :smile:
As I guessed (above) it has a lot in common with Harrison's Naked Buddha - he even quotes Harrison - but Dhammika is mostly concerned with Theravada in Theravadin countries, while Harrison is mostly concerned with Buddhism in the West.
My response to The Broken Buddha?
(1) It's very, very negative - too negative for enjoyable reading and surely too negative to be accurate: any system with that much against it would have fallen in a heap long ago.
(2) Regretfully, I think there is a lot of truth in it. I think all these flaws do exist, though I doubt that they are as pervasive as claimed.

I was lucky enough to visit Thailand and Cambodia for a few weeks late last year. It was my first real visit to a Theravadin country, and I was struck by the parallels between Buddhism as practised there and Christianity in mediaeval and renaissance Europe. (That is not a comparison that might come automatically to many people but in my day job I have specialised in very old music, so I have a better-than-usual knowledge of the culture of that period.)
Once you get out of Bangkok, you see hundreds of poor, basically subsistence-farming, villages each supporting a Wat - ditto Europe around 1400.
The religious language is not the local language, so ordinary people do not understand the liturgy - ditto Europe around 1400.
The Church/Wat is a (or the only) centre of education and learning, and maybe healing - ditto Europe around 1400.
The Wat is usually the largest and richest building in the village - ditto Europe around 1400.
Villagers spend an inordinate amount of their money supporting it - ditto Europe around 1400.
The monastery is all-male - ditto Europe around 1400.
The culture is male-dominated - ditto Europe around 1400.
Boys enter the monasteries as novices before they are old enough to make an informed commitment - ditto Europe around 1400.
...and so on.
With all that in mind, the distortions and abuses that Dhammika itemises come as no surprise because they are exactly the same distortions and abuses that one religious reformer after another attacked in Europe. I feel that monasticism per se has structural imperatives of its own, regardless of the religious doctrine on which it is centred.
So perhaps the fate of monasticism in Europe can give us some pointers to what is likely to happen to it in Theravadin countries - though the process is, IMO, likely to be much quicker this time because of the pressures from our post-monastic, post-feudal, post-authoritarian, almost-post-masculinist society. Local people can see a well-developed alternative, which wasn't true in Europe at the end of feudal times.

Two final comments:
I don't particularly like Dhammika's vision for a 'Buddhayana': I think it is fatally corrupted by reliance on the old model.
I did enjoy my time in Thailand and Cambodia, and I did like and respect almost all the people I met there. My feeling was that Buddhism has produced a fundamentally nicer society than Christianity, in spite of any failings of the monastic system.
:namaste:
Kim
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appicchato
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by appicchato »

:thumbsup: Interesting comparisons Kim...and ones probably not considered by many...I, for one, personally don't readily see a (workable) solution...hopefully someone (much) brighter will...although human nature being what it is I wouldn't wager on it...
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Goofaholix »

Kim O'Hara wrote:I did enjoy my time in Thailand and Cambodia, and I did like and respect almost all the people I met there. My feeling was that Buddhism has produced a fundamentally nicer society than Christianity, in spite of any failings of the monastic system.
:namaste:
Kim
I think you need to spend a bit longer there then. I spent over two years there of and on and am married to a Thai. Once you scratch below the surface of the smiles and happy go lucky charm of the people I don't find their society nicer at all.

Your comparison with medieval europe is interesting, but I haven't seen much evidence that there might someday be a radical reform as the west had, it's just been too deeply ingrained in the culture for too long I think.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Goofaholix,
Goofaholix wrote: I think you need to spend a bit longer there then. I spent over two years there of and on and am married to a Thai. Once you scratch below the surface of the smiles and happy go lucky charm of the people I don't find their society nicer at all.
I don't have that depth of experience, but I would agree. It's not necessarily less nice either, but there is all kinds stuff that goes on in the background that is hard to see at first, and I would say many would never see if they just go there as a tourist (or meet a few Thai people socially from time to time in their own country). Unless you can speak the language, or have someone like a spouse who can pass on the gossip, it's really hard to tell what is going on... As I tried to point out on the thread about "cultural differences and teaching": http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 492#p58492" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, I think this is true of most countries. I'm now very aware when I'm a tourist somewhere that what I am experiencing is not "the real XXX". Which is fine - if I'm on a vacation on a tropical island I don't necessarily want "the real xxx", I might just want to relax....

Mike
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Kim OHara
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Re: "The Broken Buddha" by Ven. S. Dhammika

Post by Kim OHara »

Goofaholix wrote: Your comparison with medieval europe is interesting, but I haven't seen much evidence that there might someday be a radical reform as the west had, it's just been too deeply ingrained in the culture for too long I think.
Hi, Goofaholix,
Here's some food for thought on that question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolutio ... _and_Wales
How many of these motives and strategies for reducing monasticism might be applicable in Theravadin countries in the next, say, twenty years?
:juggling:
Change doesn't have to come from within, and Dhammika suggests that it's very unlikely to do so.

:namaste:
Kim
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