pulga wrote:Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.
You have to double the p (appaṭigha), then you'll find it in the DN's Saṅgītisutta and the SN's Sallasutta.
pulga wrote:Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.
A thousand apologies! I don't have my copy of Edgerton with me, so I'll offer the definitions of the Pali equivalents, on the assumption that the various schools shared a common lexicon for these terms.tiltbillings wrote:A translation possible?
pulga wrote:Interesting find, Sylvester. I've got just a couple questions.
Don’t the arūpa jhānas fall within the realm of nāmarūpa, cf. for example SN 14.11 where the the elements of the base of infinite space and so on are ultimately discernible dependent upon the element of form? Would it be correct to think of them as apaṭigha, i.e. without impingement? Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.Sylvester wrote:Notice the list of synonyms at the end of the passage?\\\ +++ arūpam anidarśanam apratighaṃ ++++\\\
This paṭicca idiom is of course well known in the formulae for Dependant Arising. I propose referring to DN 15 for a clue -Yāyaṃ, bhikkhu, ākāsānañcāyatanadhātu—ayaṃ dhātu rūpaṃ paṭicca paññāyati.
The base of the infinity of space is discerned in dependence on form.
per BB
I propose that the locative rūpakāye is a locative of reference (ie would designation contact be discerned with reference to the form-group?).Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho rūpakāye adhivacanasamphasso paññāyethā”ti?
If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”
per BB
Thank you, Bhante. Given the scarcity of the expression "viññāṇa anidassana", I don't think it is feasible to draw a definitive conclusion as to its meaning. But I question whether it is refers merely to the Formless Attainments. Given that it is where 'the long and the short, the small and the big, the fair and the foul' cease without remainder, it may have something to do with the "transcendence of discrimination" (vidhā samatikkanta) the Suttas refer to, e.g. --Dhammanando wrote: You have to double the p (appaṭigha), then you'll find it in the DN's Saṅgītisutta and the SN's Sallasutta.
Evaṃ kho, surādha, jānato evaṃ passato imasmiñca saviññāṇake kāye, bahiddhā ca sabbanimittesu ahaṅkāramamaṅkāramānāpagataṃ mānasaṃ hoti vidhā samatikkantaṃ santaṃ suvimuttan”ti
Though perhaps vidhā samatikkanta ought to be identified as “the three discriminations” (tayo vidhā) of the Samiddhi Sutta.“When one knows and sees thus, Suradha, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, the mind is rid of I-making, mine-making, and conceit, has transcended discrimination, and is peaceful and well liberated.” SN 22.72
“Samo visesī uda vānihīno,
Yo maññatī so vivadethatena;
Tīsu vidhāsu avikampamāno,
Samo visesīti na tassa hoti;
Sace vijānāsi vadehi yakkhā”ti.
“One who conceives ‘I am equal, better, or worse,’
Might on that account engage in disputes.
But one not shaken in the three discriminations
Does not think, ‘I am equal or better.’ SN 1.20
Thanks. I role my eyes, and slowly shake my head. I could have just as easily used my copy of Edgerton, which is three steps from where I am sitting, to provide a translation, though I don't understand why you don't carry yours with you.Sylvester wrote:A thousand apologies! I don't have my copy of Edgerton with me, so I'll offer the definitions of the Pali equivalents, on the assumption that the various schools shared a common lexicon for these terms.tiltbillings wrote:A translation possible?
arūpa = formless
anidarśana = anidassana = not visible, without shape/appearance
apratigha = appaṭigha = not from sensory impingement
Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā? Catūsu bhūmīsu kusalaṃ, akusalaṃ, catūsu bhūmīsu vipāko, tīsu bhūmīsu kiriyābyākataṃ, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, nibbānañca—ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.
Nevertheless, I really don't know what to make of it -- other than that anidassanaappaṭighā applies to nibbāna. So viññāṇa anidassana might very well apply to the consciousness of the arahat as per Ñanavira.What dhammā are invisible and unimpinged? The profitable and unprofitable in the four realms, the result in the four realms, and the action without result in the three realms; and that rūpa that is invisible and unimpinged included within the base of ideas (dhammā), and nibbāna – these dhammā are invisible and unimpinged. (Dhammasaṅgaṇī 1423)
Thanks pulga.pulga wrote:Hi Sylvester,
You're probably aware of this passage, but the Dhammasaṅgaṇī provides a definition of how the Theravadins understood the terms.
Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā? Catūsu bhūmīsu kusalaṃ, akusalaṃ, catūsu bhūmīsu vipāko, tīsu bhūmīsu kiriyābyākataṃ, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, nibbānañca—ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.Nevertheless, I really don't know what to make of it -- other than that anidassanaappaṭighā applies to nibbāna. So viññāṇa anidassana might very well apply to the consciousness of the arahat as per Ñanavira.What dhammā are invisible and unimpinged? The profitable and unprofitable in the four realms, the result in the four realms, and the action without result in the three realms; and that rūpa that is invisible and unimpinged included within the base of ideas (dhammā), and nibbāna – these dhammā are invisible and unimpinged. (Dhammasaṅgaṇī 1423)
This definition is probably an elaboration of the earlier Vb definitions -Katame dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, viññāṇakkhandho; yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu—ime dhammā anidassanaappaṭighā.
Which are the states that are both invisible and non-impingeing? The four skandhas; that form, moreover, which, being invisible and non-impingeing, is yet included in the sphere of [mental] states; also uncompounded element.
https://suttacentral.net/en/ds2.3.1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ditto for Vb 2's definition of the dhammadhātu which is exactly the same as the above.Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅkhārakkhandho, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaappaṭighaṃ dhammāyatanapariyāpannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.
Therein what is ideational sense-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities and that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational sense-base; the unconditioned element.
https://suttacentral.net/en/vb2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
starter wrote: ↑Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:33 pm To my understanding of AN 10.7, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained is indeed "the cessation of perception and feeling", and I remember that several suttas mentioned he was liberated by obtaining the concentration of "the cessation of perception and feeling". In such an attainment, feeling, perception and consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) cease together. To me the word "perception" has two different designations in the sutta, one means the mundane perception (the perception of five aggregates), and another one (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding) is a transcendental "perception" that arises as the mundane perception ceases. It's probably better for us to have a more complete understanding of such different designations of important words in their respective contexts in the suttas to avoid biased views, misunderstandings and confusions.
The following suttas might be of help to understand "the unborn, ...", but please read these suttas (also the ones I cited before) carefully without any previously formed bias/notions before you make your judgments:
"... There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned", ... "escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned" (Ud8:3/80).
"... the unborn, unaging, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage" (MN 26.18).
"... the supreme foundation of truth, whose nature is undeceptive and which ranks as the supreme noble truth" (MN 140.26)
33 synonyms for Nibbana (SN 43.1-44):
1. The Unconditioned
2. The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
3. The Uninclined
4. The taintless
5. The truth
6. The other shore
7. The subtle
8. The very difficult to see
9. The unaging
10. The stable
11. The undisintegrating
12. The unmanifest
13. The unproliferated
14. The peaceful
15. The deathless
16. The sublime
17. The auspicious
18. The secure
19. The destruction of craving
20. The wonderful
21. The amazing
22. The secure
23. The unailing state
24. The unafflicted
25. The passionless
26. The Pure
27. Freedom
28. Non attachment
29. The island
30. The shelter
31. The asylum
32. The refuge
33. The ultimate (The destination and the path leading to the destination)
I hope these teachings won't be regarded as those of Hindhu's about Atman. As I understand, Hindu's teachings only refer to the conditioned phenomena within the five aggregates as eternal "self" because they cannot see the unconditioned. Actually the Buddha taught us that nibbana is causeless, timeless and imperishable. Of course it doesn't mean that we should take it as "self". Nibbana is NOT "I", "mine". The sense of "self" is the result of the "magic show" of mind consciousness. It appears to me that the Buddha didn't teach we should hold the view that we have no self, but rather, he teaches us to remove any view of self:
“View the world, … as empty — always mindful to have removed any view about self [e.g. "I have a self" or "I have no self"]. This way one is above & beyond death. This is how one views the world so as not to be seen by Death's king.” — Sn 5.16
Metta to all,
Starter
The 2nd noble truth does not highlight consciousness; nor does dependent origination. There are versions of dependent origination (MN 38, MN 148, SN 12.44, etc) where consciousness is neutral; that is, where dependent origination ceases while consciousness remains conscious of sense objects.
Not really. The third noble truth is about ending craving.
The Buddha said all of the aggregates are to be comprehended. MN 1 similarly says Nibbana is to be fully understood as not-self.
Nibbana is not the state of cessation of perception and feeling. NIbbana is the cessation of craving; the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. The experience of Nibbana does not exclude feelings (Iti 44).
The Buddha attained Nibbana from the 4th jhana and not from the state of cessation of perception and feeling.
In DN 11 & MN 49, the Buddha was teaching something to faithless unenlightened non-Buddhists who remained unenlightened. Ud 1.10 is not about the state of cessation of perception and feeling. Ud 1.10 is about having mere sense experience without construing self.
No. DN 11 & MN 49 are about the ending of discriminating or conceptualizing long-short, course-fine, foul-fair, naming-forms. As for the term "viññāṇassa nirodhena", it does not necessarily literally mean "cessation" of consciousness. SN 22.5, for example, says the terms arising & ending of the aggregates refer to the arising & ending of craving & attachment in respect to the aggregates.
How can "direct experience" occur without consciousness?
Ven. Analayo alternate interpretation appears irrelevant. What appears relevant is the term "viññāṇassa nirodhena" does not necessarily literally mean "cessation" of consciousness. It appears very clear in DN 11 that the teaching is about giving up conceptual discriminations of long-short, fine-course, beautiful-ugly, naming forms; similar to Hindu teaching of non-duality.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm I agree with Ven. Analayo that in the passage the original reading might well have been sabbato pa(ja)haṃ ( “given up in every way” -- not partaking of the allness of the all as in MN 49?), instead of sabbatopabhaṃ (“luminous all around”, which doesn't fit in at all) [for details please see https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... usmind.pdf]. Then the translation would be:
"Consciousness non-manifesting*, immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all. Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.
There is no perception in the cessation of perception and feeling; which obviously includes no perception of Nibbana.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm 2. Cessation of perception and feeling is Nibbana
When the Buddha and the arahants dwell in the state of cessation of perception and feeling, they are temporarily liberated from the five aggregates, and are dwelling in Nibbana. They “perceive” Nibbana when dwelling in such a state.
They appear to associate Nibbana with the destruction of the defilement via seeing with wisdom; when they say: "Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended".
No. There is at least one sutta that says defilement re-arise after emerging from cessation of perception and feeling.
Obscure sutta in obscure context. Another teaching not given to Buddhists.
It appears the seeing with wisdom does not occur while remaining in the cessation of perception and feeling. MN 43 says consciousness & wisdom are cojoined therefore it appears wisdom cannot occur in an unconscious state.
Buddha attained Nibbana from the 4th jhana.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAs long as I hadn’t entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.
But when I had entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.”
Yes, the above is non-returner.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 5.166:
“Mendicants, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. … If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, they’re reborn in the company of a certain host of mind-made gods, who surpass the gods that consume solid food. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.”
having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. That too is a way to understand how Nibbanastarter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 9.34:
“Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. That too is a way to understand how Nibbana is bliss.”
Appears irrelevant.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 10.20:
[Monks:] “Could it be, reverend, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
Again, irrelevant.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm[Ven. Sāriputta:] “It’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all volitions, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, Nibbana.’
That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
Again, irrelevant.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 10.7:
[Ven. Sariputta:]
“On one occasion, friend Ānanda, I was dwelling right here in Sāvatthī in the Blind Men’s Grove. There I attained such a state of concentration that I was not percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but I was still percipient.”
“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”
“One perception arose and another perception ceased in me*: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”
Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. Nibbana is not the cessation of perception, feeling & consciousness.starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm When the aggregate perception and consciousness cease at the state of cessation of perception and feeling (and also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana arise. If the Buddha didn’t have such transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana, he wouldn’t have been able to teach what he knew about Nibbana to us.
Arahants do not die.
The above appears not about being unconscious but about consciousness not clinging to anything.
Arahant does not die. SN 22.85; MN 140; MN 26; etc.
Yes, the above appears to be about the views of Mara; similar to how your posts are about your personal views.
Unestablished consciousness does not appear to mean unconsciousness. Refer to SN 22.53
And, so?starter wrote: ↑Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 8.19: With Pahārāda
“Just as, whatever streams in the world flow into the great ocean and however much rain falls into it from the sky, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the great ocean, so too, even if many bhikkhus attain final nibbāna by way of the nibbāna element without residue remaining, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the nibbāna element.
Nibbana is not vinnana. Nibbana is the unconditioned. Vinnana is conditioned.MN 115:
“There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”
Nibbana with feeling; which shows Nibbana is not cessation of perception & feeling."What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
A permanent Nibbana element when life ends. Cessation of perception & feeling is not permanent and not the unconditioned. Also, Nibbana-element with no residue left appears not to be an experience thus unrelated to consciousness."Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
Nibbana is not vinnana. Nibbana is the unconditioned. Vinnana is conditioned.Ud 8.3... Ud 8.1... Ud 8.4... Just this is the end of suffering.
again, u appear to be interpreting "asesavirāganirodhā" to refer to a literal physical cessation of the sense bases. But the sutta appears to say the meaning of "asesavirāganirodhā" is: "When the six fields of contact fade away and cease with nothing left over, mental proliferation stops and is stilled".For an alternative translation/interpretation of the sañcetaniyavagga sutta (AN 4.173), which would not discourage practitioners from striving to understand Nibbana, please see:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/al ... bana/18157
Nibbana is not vinnana. Nibbana is the unconditioned. Vinnana is conditioned.Let me end this essay with the Buddha’s invitation to the Deathless:
MN 26:
“Then the bhikkhus of the group of five, thus taught and instructed by me, being themselves subject to birth, having understood the danger in what is subject to birth, seeking the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, attained the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being themselves subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, seeking the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, they attained the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna. The knowledge and vision arose in them: ‘Our deliverance is unshakeable; this is our last birth; there is no renewal of being.’
...
‘Open for them are the doors to the Deathless, Let those with ears now show their faith...”