Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by Dhammanando »

pulga wrote:Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.

You have to double the p (appaṭigha), then you'll find it in the DN's Saṅgītisutta and the SN's Sallasutta.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by Sylvester »

tiltbillings wrote:A translation possible?
A thousand apologies! I don't have my copy of Edgerton with me, so I'll offer the definitions of the Pali equivalents, on the assumption that the various schools shared a common lexicon for these terms.

arūpa = formless

anidarśana = anidassana = not visible, without shape/appearance

apratigha = appa­ṭi­gha = not from sensory impingement
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by Sylvester »

pulga wrote:Interesting find, Sylvester. I've got just a couple questions.
Sylvester wrote:
\\\ +++ arūpam anidarśanam apratighaṃ ++++\\\
Notice the list of synonyms at the end of the passage?
Don’t the arūpa jhānas fall within the realm of nāmarūpa, cf. for example SN 14.11 where the the elements of the base of infinite space and so on are ultimately discernible dependent upon the element of form? Would it be correct to think of them as apaṭigha, i.e. without impingement? Oddly -- if I'm not mistaken -- I don't believe the word "apaṭigha" even appears in the Sutta Pitaka.

Hi pulga

As you are doubtless aware, SN 14.11 posits the relationship of the base of infinite space with form as follows -
Yāyaṃ, bhikkhu, ākāsānañ­cāyata­na­dhātu—ayaṃ dhātu rūpaṃ paṭicca paññāyati.

The base of the infinity of space is discerned in dependence on form.
per BB
This paṭicca idiom is of course well known in the formulae for Dependant Arising. I propose referring to DN 15 for a clue -
Yehi, ānanda, ākārehi yehi liṅgehi yehi nimittehi yehi uddesehi nāmakāyassa paññatti hoti, tesu ākāresu tesu liṅgesu tesu nimittesu tesu uddesesu asati api nu kho rūpakāye adhi­vacana­samphasso paññāyethā”ti?

If those qualities, traits, signs, and indicators through which there is a description of the mental body were all absent, would designation-contact be discerned in the material body?”
per BB
I propose that the locative rūpakāye is a locative of reference (ie would designation contact be discerned with reference to the form-group?).
I'm sure you recognise the existential locative absolute in red and what I believe it says in relation to dependency, namely the verbs in the subordinate clause and the main clause need not be contemporaneous.

So, even if the base of infinite space is absolutely dependant on Form, the 2 need not co-exist in that same time. It also seems that DN 9 would not allow the singularity of the perception of Infinite Space to trot along with another perception.
Last edited by Sylvester on Mon Jun 06, 2016 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by pulga »

Dhammanando wrote: You have to double the p (appaṭigha), then you'll find it in the DN's Saṅgītisutta and the SN's Sallasutta.
Thank you, Bhante. Given the scarcity of the expression "viññāṇa anidassana", I don't think it is feasible to draw a definitive conclusion as to its meaning. But I question whether it is refers merely to the Formless Attainments. Given that it is where 'the long and the short, the small and the big, the fair and the foul' cease without remainder, it may have something to do with the "transcendence of discrimination" (vidhā samatikkanta) the Suttas refer to, e.g. --
Evaṃ kho, surādha, jānato evaṃ passato imasmiñca saviññāṇake kāye, bahiddhā ca sabbanimittesu ahaṅkā­ra­ma­maṅkā­ra­mā­nāpaga­taṃ mānasaṃ hoti vidhā samatikkantaṃ santaṃ suvimuttan”ti
“When one knows and sees thus, Suradha, then in regard to this body with consciousness and in regard to all external signs, the mind is rid of I-making, mine-making, and conceit, has transcended discrimination, and is peaceful and well liberated.” SN 22.72
Though perhaps vidhā samatikkanta ought to be identified as “the three discriminations” (tayo vidhā) of the Samiddhi Sutta.

“Samo visesī uda vānihīno,
Yo maññatī so vivadethatena;
Tīsu vidhāsu avikampamāno,
Samo visesīti na tassa hoti;
Sace vijānāsi vadehi yakkhā”ti.

“One who conceives ‘I am equal, better, or worse,’
Might on that account engage in disputes.
But one not shaken in the three discriminations
Does not think, ‘I am equal or better.’ SN 1.20
Last edited by pulga on Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sylvester wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:A translation possible?
A thousand apologies! I don't have my copy of Edgerton with me, so I'll offer the definitions of the Pali equivalents, on the assumption that the various schools shared a common lexicon for these terms.

arūpa = formless

anidarśana = anidassana = not visible, without shape/appearance

apratigha = appa­ṭi­gha = not from sensory impingement
Thanks. I role my eyes, and slowly shake my head. I could have just as easily used my copy of Edgerton, which is three steps from where I am sitting, to provide a translation, though I don't understand why you don't carry yours with you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by Sylvester »

:jumping:

I can think of easier ways to grow muscles.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by pulga »

Hi Sylvester,

You're probably aware of this passage, but the Dhammasaṅgaṇī provides a definition of how the Theravadins understood the terms.
Katame dhammā ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā? Catūsu bhūmīsu kusalaṃ, akusalaṃ, catūsu bhūmīsu vipāko, tīsu bhūmīsu kiriyābyākataṃ, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammā­yatana­pariyā­pannaṃ, nibbānañca—ime dhammā ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā.
What dhammā are invisible and unimpinged? The profitable and unprofitable in the four realms, the result in the four realms, and the action without result in the three realms; and that rūpa that is invisible and unimpinged included within the base of ideas (dhammā), and nibbāna – these dhammā are invisible and unimpinged. (Dhammasaṅgaṇī 1423)
Nevertheless, I really don't know what to make of it -- other than that ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā applies to nibbāna. So viññāṇa anidassana might very well apply to the consciousness of the arahat as per Ñanavira.
"Dhammā=Ideas. This is the clue to much of the Buddha's teaching." ~ Ven. Ñanavira, Commonplace Book
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by Sylvester »

pulga wrote:Hi Sylvester,

You're probably aware of this passage, but the Dhammasaṅgaṇī provides a definition of how the Theravadins understood the terms.
Katame dhammā ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā? Catūsu bhūmīsu kusalaṃ, akusalaṃ, catūsu bhūmīsu vipāko, tīsu bhūmīsu kiriyābyākataṃ, yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammā­yatana­pariyā­pannaṃ, nibbānañca—ime dhammā ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā.
What dhammā are invisible and unimpinged? The profitable and unprofitable in the four realms, the result in the four realms, and the action without result in the three realms; and that rūpa that is invisible and unimpinged included within the base of ideas (dhammā), and nibbāna – these dhammā are invisible and unimpinged. (Dhammasaṅgaṇī 1423)
Nevertheless, I really don't know what to make of it -- other than that ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā applies to nibbāna. So viññāṇa anidassana might very well apply to the consciousness of the arahat as per Ñanavira.
Thanks pulga.

I am not really familiar with the organisational structure of the Dhammasaṅgaṇī and thus have some difficulty navigating some of its multiple definitions. Here's one related to the above -
Katame dhammā ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅ­khā­rak­khan­dho, viññā­ṇak­khan­dho; yañca rūpaṃ anidassanaṃ appaṭighaṃ dhammā­yatana­pariyā­pannaṃ; asaṅkhatā ca dhātu—ime dhammā ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghā.

Which are the states that are both invisible and non-impingeing? The four skandhas; that form, moreover, which, being invisible and non-impingeing, is yet included in the sphere of [mental] states; also uncompounded element.

https://suttacentral.net/en/ds2.3.1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This definition is probably an elaboration of the earlier Vb definitions -
Tattha katamaṃ dhammāyatanaṃ? Vedanākkhandho, saññākkhandho, saṅ­khā­rak­khan­dho, yañca rūpaṃ ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ dhammā­yatana­pariyā­pannaṃ, asaṅkhatā ca dhātu.

Therein what is ideational sense-base? The aggregate of feeling, aggregate of perception, aggregate of volitional activities and that invisible non-impingent form included in the ideational sense-base; the unconditioned element.

https://suttacentral.net/en/vb2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ditto for Vb 2's definition of the dhammadhātu which is exactly the same as the above.

What do we do with these definitions? For me, I would just see them as Abhidhammic projects in attempting to make sense of DN 33's sani­dassa­na­sappa­ṭi­ghaṃ rūpaṃ, ani­dassa­na­sappa­ṭi­ghaṃ rūpaṃ, ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ rūpaṃ. This probably stems from one interpretation that rūpa can never be divorced from the unity that is nāmarūpa, thus necessitating a role for rūpa to "underlie" the arūpa contemporaneously. The Sarvastivadins were also acutely aware of the weird animal in MA 30/MN 28, ie the Form Aggregate which arises with mind-contact, and they dealt with that in Sarva fashion. Strangely enough, while I could not trace DN 33's reference to the 3 types of rūpa in the Sarva parallels to DN 33, the 3-fold classification is cited in the Sarva's Abhidharma Mahāvibhāṣa Śāstra as coming from the sutras.

But, all of these are quite unnecessary if we acknowledge that by the time of the later sutras and Abhidhamma, nāmarūpa had undergone quite a radical redefinition to refer to the Immaterial and Material aggregates. If we put that ontological classification aside and go back to normalised Middle Indo Aryan, materiality and immateriality had no part to play in nāmarūpa. Certainly, the external rūpa is amenable to being treated as "material", but the Buddha, it seems, was hardly interested in external rūpa beside noting the dependency of the Form Aggregate on rūpa : SN 22.82. What was of interest to the Buddha was the Form Aggregate as an object of clinging, and the Form Aggregate arises at all 6 sense bases (MN 28).

Certainly, I would not disagree that the Theravadin position on the viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ of DN 11 is pointing towards Nibbana, based on the Comy. But, as you can see above, the Abhidhamma has a much larger menagerie of states that partake of the quality of being ani­dassa­na­ap­paṭi­ghaṃ.
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ=consciousness not established=nibbana?

Post by drun »

starter wrote: Mon Jan 09, 2012 4:33 pm To my understanding of AN 10.7, the concentration Ven. Sariputta attained is indeed "the cessation of perception and feeling", and I remember that several suttas mentioned he was liberated by obtaining the concentration of "the cessation of perception and feeling". In such an attainment, feeling, perception and consciousness (the aggregate of consciousness) cease together. To me the word "perception" has two different designations in the sutta, one means the mundane perception (the perception of five aggregates), and another one (the perception of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding) is a transcendental "perception" that arises as the mundane perception ceases. It's probably better for us to have a more complete understanding of such different designations of important words in their respective contexts in the suttas to avoid biased views, misunderstandings and confusions.

The following suttas might be of help to understand "the unborn, ...", but please read these suttas (also the ones I cited before) carefully without any previously formed bias/notions before you make your judgments:

"... There is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned", ... "escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned" (Ud8:3/80).

"... the unborn, unaging, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, undefiled supreme security from bondage" (MN 26.18).

"... the supreme foundation of truth, whose nature is undeceptive and which ranks as the supreme noble truth" (MN 140.26)

33 synonyms for Nibbana (SN 43.1-44):
1. The Unconditioned
2. The destruction of lust, hate, delusion
3. The Uninclined
4. The taintless
5. The truth
6. The other shore
7. The subtle
8. The very difficult to see
9. The unaging
10. The stable
11. The undisintegrating
12. The unmanifest
13. The unproliferated
14. The peaceful
15. The deathless
16. The sublime
17. The auspicious
18. The secure
19. The destruction of craving
20. The wonderful
21. The amazing
22. The secure
23. The unailing state
24. The unafflicted
25. The passionless
26. The Pure
27. Freedom
28. Non attachment
29. The island
30. The shelter
31. The asylum
32. The refuge
33. The ultimate (The destination and the path leading to the destination)

I hope these teachings won't be regarded as those of Hindhu's about Atman. As I understand, Hindu's teachings only refer to the conditioned phenomena within the five aggregates as eternal "self" because they cannot see the unconditioned. Actually the Buddha taught us that nibbana is causeless, timeless and imperishable. Of course it doesn't mean that we should take it as "self". Nibbana is NOT "I", "mine". The sense of "self" is the result of the "magic show" of mind consciousness. It appears to me that the Buddha didn't teach we should hold the view that we have no self, but rather, he teaches us to remove any view of self:

“View the world, … as empty — always mindful to have removed any view about self [e.g. "I have a self" or "I have no self"]. This way one is above & beyond death. This is how one views the world so as not to be seen by Death's king.” — Sn 5.16

Metta to all,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by drun »

for

starter
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the quote you made in the end is Suttanipata 5.16 (not 15)

sutta nipāta 5.16

the way to the beyond

The Young Man Mogharāja’s Questions
“Twice I asked the Sakyan,” said venerable Mogharāja,
“but the Visionary did not answer me,
if asked up to a third time the Divine Seer answers, I have heard.

“This world, the other world, the Brahma world with its Gods:
one does not know what view of this the reputable Gotama has.

“So, to the One With Excellent Sight, I have come in need with a question:
Looking on the world in what way does the king of Death not see one?”

“Look on the world as empty, Mogharāja, being always mindful.
Having removed wrong view of self, in this way one will cross beyond Death.
When looking on the world in this way the king of Death does not see one.”

thanks

bye Dan
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by starter »

Hello friends,

Many thanks for all your kind help and input.

I came back to this thread because I've realized that in order to truly understand the second noble truth, we need to understand consciousness to comprehend dependent origination; in order to truly understand the third noble truth, we need to understand consciousness and Nibbana. The Buddha taught us that consciousness is to be fully understood (MN 43), and a trainee must fully understand nibbana (MN 1).

To understand Nibbana, we need to understand the state of cessation of perception and feeling, since IMHO what we have learned about nibbana are from the Buddha’s (and arahants’) direct experiences of the state of cessation of perception and feeling.

1. The Buddha’s experience of cessation of perception and feeling:

In DN 11, MN 49, and Ud 1.10, IMHO, the Buddha was describing what he directly experienced at the state of cessation of perception and feeling (and consciousness). One can doubt the reliability of these suttas, but what they describe -- the state of cessation of perception and feeling, is beyond doubt.

Ud 1.10

“Where water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing:
There the stars don't shine,
the sun isn't visible.
There the moon doesn't appear.
There darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has directly experiences this,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.”

DN 11 the Kevaḍḍha-sutta [Parallel DA 24]:

"Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ, anantaṃ sabbatopabhaṃ;
Ettha āpo ca pathavī, tejo vāyo na gādhati.
Ettha dīghañca rassañca, aṇuṃ thūlaṃ subhāsubhaṃ;
Ettha nāmañca rūpañca, asesaṃ uparujjhati;
Viññāṇassa nirodhena, etthetaṃ uparujjhatī’ti. "

I agree with Ven. Analayo that in the passage the original reading might well have been sabbato pa(ja)haṃ ( “given up in every way” -- not partaking of the allness of the all as in MN 49?), instead of sabbatopabhaṃ (“luminous all around”, which doesn't fit in at all) [for details please see https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... usmind.pdf]. Then the translation would be:

"Consciousness non-manifesting*, immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all. Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.

MN 49 Brahma-nimantanika Sutta:

"Consciousness non-manifesting*, immeasurable, given up in every way -- does not partake of the solidity of earth, the liquidity of water, the radiance of fire, the windiness of wind, the divinity of devas [and so on through a list of the various levels of godhood to] the allness of the All."

[*Consciousness is not manifesting (there is no aggregate consciousness which has ceased); it should NOT be interpreted as "invisible consciousness" or ‘non-manifestative consciousness’ IMHO. At the state of cessation of perception and feeling, consciousness ceases. The "immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all" does not refer to aggregate consciousness, but the "untraceable" transcendental awareness -- please see below.]

Please note that such descriptions (consciousness non-manifesting, immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all) agree with the suttas' description of Nibbana, as well as the following description of the Tathāgata:

MN 72 [SA 962, SA2 196]

“... any form ..., any feeling …, any perception …, any volition ..., any consciousness by which one classifying the Tathagata might classify him, that feeling ... , that perception …, that volition …, that consciousness has been got rid of by the Tathāgata, cut off at the root, made like a palm stump, done away with it, so that it is no longer subject to future arising. Freed from denotation by feeling …, perception ..., volition ..., consciousness is the Tathāgata, Vaccha, he is deep, immeasurable, hard to fathom, like the ocean. ‘Reappears’ doesn’t apply. ‘Does not reappear’ doesn’t apply. ‘Both does & does not reappear’ doesn’t apply. ‘Neither reappears nor does not reappear’ doesn’t apply.

AN 10.81:

"Freed, dissociated, and released from ten things, Bahuna, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*. Which ten? Freed, dissociated, and released from form, the Tathagata dwells with unbound mind. Freed, dissociated, and released from feeling... from perception... from fabrications... from consciousness... from birth... from aging... from death... from stress... Freed, dissociated, and released from defilement, the Tathagata dwells with boundless mind*." [*This “mind” is transcendental and unconditioned which is “untraceable here and now” (MN 22), not the conditioned six-sense mind as mentioned in SN 4.19.]

SN 4.19 The Farmer
“The eye is yours, Evil One, forms are yours, eye-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no eye, no forms, no eye-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One. ... The mind is yours, Evil One, mind objects are yours, mind-contact and its base of consciousness are yours; but, Evil One, where there is no mind, no mind objects, no mind-contact and its base of consciousness—there is no place for you there, Evil One."

2. Cessation of perception and feeling is Nibbana

When the Buddha and the arahants dwell in the state of cessation of perception and feeling, they are temporarily liberated from the five aggregates, and are dwelling in Nibbana. They “perceive” Nibbana when dwelling in such a state.

All the suttas I’ve found on cessation of perception and feeling invariably associate the attainment with Nibbana. To my knowledge, the stories about cessation of perception and feeling being an abiding for Anagami are only from commentaries, which do not agree with the suttas.

SN 1.2:
“By the utter destruction of delight in existence,
By the extinction of perception and consciousness,
By the cessation and appeasement of feelings:
It is thus, friend, that I know for beings—
Emancipation, release, unbinding.”

AN 9.41:
“And so, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I was entering and remaining in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, my defilements were ended.

As long as I hadn’t entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.

But when I had entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.”

MN 111 (& AN 9.34):
"Again, bhikkhus, by completely surmounting the base of neither perception nor non-perception, Sariputta entered upon and abided in the cessation of perception and feeling. And his taints were destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. ... He understood: ‘There is no escape beyond.’ And by repeated practice he knew for sure that there is not."

AN 5.166:
“Mendicants, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. … If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, they’re reborn in the company of a certain host of mind-made gods, who surpass the gods that consume solid food. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.”

AN 9.34:
“Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. That too is a way to understand how Nibbana is bliss.”

AN 10.20:
[Monks:] “Could it be, reverend, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”

[Ven. Sāriputta:] “It’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all volitions, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, Nibbana.’

That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.

AN 10.7:
[Ven. Sariputta:]
“On one occasion, friend Ānanda, I was dwelling right here in Sāvatthī in the Blind Men’s Grove. There I attained such a state of concentration that I was not percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but I was still percipient.”

“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”

One perception arose and another perception ceased in me*: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”

*When the aggregate perception and consciousness cease at the state of cessation of perception and feeling (and also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana arise. If the Buddha didn’t have such transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana, he wouldn’t have been able to teach what he knew about Nibbana to us.

Both before and after death an arahant is untraceable by the beings in the worlds because it's impossible for the beings to reach/know the unconditioned, transcendental "awareness", like the fish doesn't reach/know the land (MN 22: “One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.”).

3. What happens at an aranhant's death:

SN 22.87 [2 Chinese parallels]

“Then the Buddha together with several mendicants went to the Black Rock on the slopes of Isigili. The Buddha saw Vakkali off in the distance lying on his cot, having cast off the aggregates.

Now at that time a cloud of black smoke was moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between.

The Buddha said to the mendicants, “Mendicants, do you see that cloud of black smoke moving east, west, north, south, above, below, and in-between?”

“Yes, sir.”

That’s Māra the Wicked searching for Vakkali’s consciousness, wondering: ‘Where is Vakkali’s consciousness established?’ But since his consciousness is not established*, Vakkali has attained final Nibbāna.” [EA 26.10 "婆迦梨比丘神識永無所著"]
* The consciousness here refers to aggregate consciousness, which can be found by Mara and gods, had ceased. IMHO this sentence should not be translated as ""O! monks, the clansman Godhika passed away with an unestablished Consciousness."


AN 8.19: With Pahārāda
“Just as, whatever streams in the world flow into the great ocean and however much rain falls into it from the sky, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the great ocean, so too, even if many bhikkhus attain final nibbāna by way of the nibbāna element without residue remaining, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the nibbāna element. [“若眾多之比丘,亦於無餘涅槃界般涅槃,即使於無餘涅槃界亦不知有增減。”]

"Post-mortem continuum for an arahant" is not the continuum of any conditioned phenomena [ "existence"/"non-existence"], but the unconditioned, Nibbana.

4. Some other suttas about Nibbana:

MN 115:
“There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”

Iti 44:

“"Bhikkhus, there are these two Nibbana-elements. What are the two? The Nibbana-element with residue left and the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.

"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.

"These, bhikkhus, are the two Nibbana-elements."
These two Nibbana-elements were made known
By the Seeing One, stable and unattached:
One is the element seen here and now
With residue, but with the cord of being destroyed;
The other, having no residue for the future,
Is that wherein all modes of being utterly cease.

Having understood the uncompounded state,
Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed,
They have attained to the Dhamma-essence.
Delighting in the destruction (of craving),
Those stable ones have abandoned all being.”

Ud 8.3:
“There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned.”

Ud 8.1:
“There is, bhikkhus, that base where there is no earth, no water, no fire, no air; no base consisting of the infinity of space, no base consisting of the infinity of consciousness, no base consisting of nothingness, no base consisting of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; neither this world nor another world nor both; neither sun nor moon. Here, bhikkhus, I say there is no coming, no going, no standing still; neither passing away nor arising (being reborn). It is not established, not moving, unsupported. Just this is the end of suffering."

Ud 8.4
For the supported there is instability, for the unsupported there is no instability; when there is no instability there is serenity; when there is serenity there is no inclination: when there is no inclination there is no coming-and-going; when there is no coming-and-going there is no decease-and-uprising; when there is no decease-and-uprising there is neither "here" nor "beyond" nor "in between the two." Just this is the end of suffering.

For an alternative translation/interpretation of the sañcetaniyavagga sutta (AN 4.173), which would not discourage practitioners from striving to understand Nibbana, please see:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/al ... bana/18157

Let me end this essay with the Buddha’s invitation to the Deathless:

MN 26:
“Then the bhikkhus of the group of five, thus taught and instructed by me, being themselves subject to birth, having understood the danger in what is subject to birth, seeking the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, attained the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being themselves subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, seeking the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, they attained the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna. The knowledge and vision arose in them: ‘Our deliverance is unshakeable; this is our last birth; there is no renewal of being.’
...
‘Open for them are the doors to the Deathless, Let those with ears now show their faith...”

Looking forward to your corrections and comments. With Metta,

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm I came back to this thread because I've realized that in order to truly understand the second noble truth, we need to understand consciousness to comprehend dependent origination;
The 2nd noble truth does not highlight consciousness; nor does dependent origination. There are versions of dependent origination (MN 38, MN 148, SN 12.44, etc) where consciousness is neutral; that is, where dependent origination ceases while consciousness remains conscious of sense objects.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmin order to truly understand the third noble truth, we need to understand consciousness ...
Not really. The third noble truth is about ending craving.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmThe Buddha taught us that consciousness is to be fully understood (MN 43), and a trainee must fully understand nibbana (MN 1).
The Buddha said all of the aggregates are to be comprehended. MN 1 similarly says Nibbana is to be fully understood as not-self.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmTo understand Nibbana, we need to understand the state of cessation of perception and feeling
Nibbana is not the state of cessation of perception and feeling. NIbbana is the cessation of craving; the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. The experience of Nibbana does not exclude feelings (Iti 44).
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmsince IMHO what we have learned about nibbana are from the Buddha’s (and arahants’) direct experiences of the state of cessation of perception and feeling.
The Buddha attained Nibbana from the 4th jhana and not from the state of cessation of perception and feeling.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmIn DN 11, MN 49, and Ud 1.10, IMHO, the Buddha was describing what he directly experienced at the state of cessation of perception and feeling (and consciousness).
In DN 11 & MN 49, the Buddha was teaching something to faithless unenlightened non-Buddhists who remained unenlightened. Ud 1.10 is not about the state of cessation of perception and feeling. Ud 1.10 is about having mere sense experience without construing self.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm One can doubt the reliability of these suttas, but what they describe -- the state of cessation of perception and feeling, is beyond doubt.
No. DN 11 & MN 49 are about the ending of discriminating or conceptualizing long-short, course-fine, foul-fair, naming-forms. As for the term "viññāṇassa nirodhena", it does not necessarily literally mean "cessation" of consciousness. SN 22.5, for example, says the terms arising & ending of the aggregates refer to the arising & ending of craving & attachment in respect to the aggregates.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm Ud 1.10

And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has directly experiences this,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.”
How can "direct experience" occur without consciousness?
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm I agree with Ven. Analayo that in the passage the original reading might well have been sabbato pa(ja)haṃ ( “given up in every way” -- not partaking of the allness of the all as in MN 49?), instead of sabbatopabhaṃ (“luminous all around”, which doesn't fit in at all) [for details please see https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... usmind.pdf]. Then the translation would be:

"Consciousness non-manifesting*, immeasurable, not partaking of the allness of the all. Here water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing. Here long & short coarse & fine fair & foul name & form are all brought to an end. With the cessation of consciousness each is here brought to an end.
Ven. Analayo alternate interpretation appears irrelevant. What appears relevant is the term "viññāṇassa nirodhena" does not necessarily literally mean "cessation" of consciousness. It appears very clear in DN 11 that the teaching is about giving up conceptual discriminations of long-short, fine-course, beautiful-ugly, naming forms; similar to Hindu teaching of non-duality.

In Buddhism, the cessation of consciousness appears to mean the cessation of craving affecting consciousness (SN 22.5; SN 22.53, etc). DN 11 and MN 49 are obviously not teachings for Buddhists because these teachings have never been given to Buddhists in the suttas.

Anyway, thanks for your construction efforts, which reminds me of Milarepa & Marpa. :smile:
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm 2. Cessation of perception and feeling is Nibbana

When the Buddha and the arahants dwell in the state of cessation of perception and feeling, they are temporarily liberated from the five aggregates, and are dwelling in Nibbana. They “perceive” Nibbana when dwelling in such a state.
There is no perception in the cessation of perception and feeling; which obviously includes no perception of Nibbana.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAll the suttas I’ve found on cessation of perception and feeling invariably associate the attainment with Nibbana.
They appear to associate Nibbana with the destruction of the defilement via seeing with wisdom; when they say: "Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended".
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmTo my knowledge, the stories about cessation of perception and feeling being an abiding for Anagami are only from commentaries, which do not agree with the suttas.
No. There is at least one sutta that says defilement re-arise after emerging from cessation of perception and feeling.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmSN 1.2:
“By the utter destruction of delight in existence,
By the extinction of perception and consciousness,
By the cessation and appeasement of feelings:
It is thus, friend, that I know for beings—
Emancipation, release, unbinding.”
Obscure sutta in obscure context. Another teaching not given to Buddhists.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 9.41:
“And so, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I was entering and remaining in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, my defilements were ended.
It appears the seeing with wisdom does not occur while remaining in the cessation of perception and feeling. MN 43 says consciousness & wisdom are cojoined therefore it appears wisdom cannot occur in an unconscious state.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAs long as I hadn’t entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I didn’t announce my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.

But when I had entered into and withdrawn from these nine progressive meditative attainments in both forward and reverse order, I announced my supreme perfect awakening in this world with its gods, Māras, and Brahmās, this population with its ascetics and brahmins, its gods and humans.”
Buddha attained Nibbana from the 4th jhana.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 5.166:
“Mendicants, take a mendicant who is accomplished in ethics, immersion, and wisdom. They might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling. … If they don’t reach enlightenment in this very life, they’re reborn in the company of a certain host of mind-made gods, who surpass the gods that consume solid food. There they might enter into and emerge from the cessation of perception and feeling.”
Yes, the above is non-returner.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 9.34:
“Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. That too is a way to understand how Nibbana is bliss.”
having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end. That too is a way to understand how Nibbana
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 10.20:
[Monks:] “Could it be, reverend, that a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this? They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.”
Appears irrelevant.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm[Ven. Sāriputta:] “It’s when a mendicant perceives: ‘This is peaceful; this is sublime—that is, the stilling of all volitions, the letting go of all attachments, the ending of craving, fading away, cessation, Nibbana.’

That’s how a mendicant might gain a state of immersion like this. They wouldn’t perceive earth in earth, water in water, fire in fire, or air in air. And they wouldn’t perceive the dimension of infinite space in the dimension of infinite space, the dimension of infinite consciousness in the dimension of infinite consciousness, the dimension of nothingness in the dimension of nothingness, or the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. They wouldn’t perceive this world in this world, or the other world in the other world. And they wouldn’t perceive what is seen, heard, thought, known, attained, sought, or explored by the mind. And yet they would still perceive.
Again, irrelevant.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 10.7:
[Ven. Sariputta:]
“On one occasion, friend Ānanda, I was dwelling right here in Sāvatthī in the Blind Men’s Grove. There I attained such a state of concentration that I was not percipient of earth in relation to earth; of water in relation to water; of fire in relation to fire; of air in relation to air; of the base of the infinity of space in relation to the base of the infinity of space; of the base of the infinity of consciousness in relation to the base of the infinity of consciousness; of the base of nothingness in relation to the base of nothingness; of the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception in relation to the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception; of this world in relation to this world; of the other world in relation to the other world, but I was still percipient.”

“But of what was the Venerable Sāriputta percipient on that occasion?”

One perception arose and another perception ceased in me*: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ Just as, when a fire of twigs is burning, one flame arises and another flame ceases, so one perception arose and another perception ceased in me: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna; the cessation of existence is nibbāna.’ On that occasion, friend, I was percipient: ‘The cessation of existence is nibbāna.’”
Again, irrelevant.

Before Marpa would teach Milarepa, he had him undergo abuse and trials, such as letting him build and then demolish three towers in turn. :smile:
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

Post by DooDoot »

starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm When the aggregate perception and consciousness cease at the state of cessation of perception and feeling (and also at the death of an arahant), the transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana arise. If the Buddha didn’t have such transcendental “perception” and awareness of Nibbana, he wouldn’t have been able to teach what he knew about Nibbana to us.
Nibbana is the cessation of greed, hatred & delusion. Nibbana is not the cessation of perception, feeling & consciousness.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmBoth before and after death an arahant
Arahants do not die.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmMN 22: “One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.”).
The above appears not about being unconscious but about consciousness not clinging to anything.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmwhat happens at an aranhant's death
Arahant does not die. SN 22.85; MN 140; MN 26; etc.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmSN 22.87 That’s Māra the Wicked searching for Vakkali’s consciousness, wondering: ‘Where is Vakkali’s consciousness established?’ But since his consciousness is not established*, Vakkali has attained final Nibbāna.”
Yes, the above appears to be about the views of Mara; similar to how your posts are about your personal views.
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pm unestablished Consciousness."
Unestablished consciousness does not appear to mean unconsciousness. Refer to SN 22.53
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmAN 8.19: With Pahārāda
“Just as, whatever streams in the world flow into the great ocean and however much rain falls into it from the sky, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the great ocean, so too, even if many bhikkhus attain final nibbāna by way of the nibbāna element without residue remaining, neither a decrease nor a filling up can be seen in the nibbāna element.
And, so?
starter wrote: Mon Dec 07, 2020 3:39 pmPost-mortem continuum for an arahant" is not the continuum of any conditioned phenomena [ "existence"/"non-existence"], but the unconditioned, Nibbana.
:shock: :shrug:
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Re: Viññāṇaṃ anidassanaṃ & appatiṭṭha viññāṇa, 2 types nibbana?

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MN 115:
“There are these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element. When a mendicant knows and sees these two elements, they’re qualified to be called ‘skilled in the elements’.”
Nibbana is not vinnana. Nibbana is the unconditioned. Vinnana is conditioned.
"What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbana-element with residue left.
Nibbana with feeling; which shows Nibbana is not cessation of perception & feeling.
"Now what, bhikkhus, is the Nibbana-element with no residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant... completely released through final knowledge. For him, here in this very life, all that is experienced, not being delighted in, will be extinguished. That, bhikkhus, is called the Nibbana-element with no residue left.
A permanent Nibbana element when life ends. Cessation of perception & feeling is not permanent and not the unconditioned. Also, Nibbana-element with no residue left appears not to be an experience thus unrelated to consciousness.
Ud 8.3... Ud 8.1... Ud 8.4... Just this is the end of suffering.
Nibbana is not vinnana. Nibbana is the unconditioned. Vinnana is conditioned.
For an alternative translation/interpretation of the sañcetaniyavagga sutta (AN 4.173), which would not discourage practitioners from striving to understand Nibbana, please see:
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/al ... bana/18157
again, u appear to be interpreting "asesavirāganirodhā" to refer to a literal physical cessation of the sense bases. But the sutta appears to say the meaning of "asesavirāganirodhā" is: "When the six fields of contact fade away and cease with nothing left over, mental proliferation stops and is stilled".

SN 22.5 was previously mentioned, which defines "origination" & "ending" of the aggregates as the ending of craving & attachment towards the aggregates.
Let me end this essay with the Buddha’s invitation to the Deathless:

MN 26:
“Then the bhikkhus of the group of five, thus taught and instructed by me, being themselves subject to birth, having understood the danger in what is subject to birth, seeking the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, attained the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna; being themselves subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, sickness, death, sorrow, and defilement, seeking the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna, they attained the unageing, unailing, deathless, sorrowless, and undefiled supreme security from bondage, Nibbāna. The knowledge and vision arose in them: ‘Our deliverance is unshakeable; this is our last birth; there is no renewal of being.’
...
‘Open for them are the doors to the Deathless, Let those with ears now show their faith...”
Nibbana is not vinnana. Nibbana is the unconditioned. Vinnana is conditioned.
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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