Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by tiltbillings »

Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Individual
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Individual »

tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.
I've considered in the past helping out Metta.lk. And of course, editing a Tipitaka wiki doesn't take any serious amount of resources.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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pink_trike
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.
Switching to print-on-demand publishing technology (from typesetting-based publishing) lowers the cost of print publishing drastically with the added benefit of generating an electronic document that can be easily offered for free online. Kindelizing the output of the print-on-demand document would drastically lower the price of the book making it available to a much larger market. These two steps would generate increased capital that could be used for further translation and electronic publishing initiatives. Individual is correct. The world has changed, to the advantage of small organizations with limited funds. Everything that Individual suggests is accurate and achievable.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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cooran
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by cooran »

tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote:
That seems reasonable, but once a translation of a basic text of Buddhism, like the Visuddhimagga, has existed for several years, I don't understand the justification for not releasing it to the public. It would be strange if this "middleground" involved keeping translations of the most integral, vital texts of Buddhism copyrighted, while releasing small portions and modern commentaries.
You are willing to pony up big bucks to support BPS so that it can make its entire catalogue free, online and so it can continue to publish via hard copy and online copy of future works?

You are willing to pony up big bucks so the Pali Text Society can of offer it works for free online and via hard copies?

Are you willing to pony up big buck so the Vipassana Research Institute can continue make its CD-ROM version of the Pali Canon and all its commentaries (including the Visuddhimagga) to be free?

Someone has to pay for all of this.
Just wanted to again put this thought forward. The Dhamma needs to be for all, not just those in rich western countries with stable homes and communities, and access in some way to the internet.

karuna
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by tiltbillings »

pink_trike wrote: Individual is correct. The world has changed, to the advantage of small organizations with limited funds. Everything that Individual suggests is accurate and achievable.
But there still is a cost to be borne by somebody or somebodies.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,
Chris wrote:Just wanted to again put this thought forward. The Dhamma needs to be for all, not just those in rich western countries with stable homes and communities, and access in some way to the internet.
Theoretically, as the price of technology comes down, getting these people internet access may be cheaper than getting them Dhamma books.

Interesting times.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by tiltbillings »

Individual wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.
I've considered in the past helping out Metta.lk. And of course, editing a Tipitaka wiki doesn't take any serious amount of resources.
Yeah, well, with wiki there can be a serious quality issue, not to mention someone has to put in time and money to keep it running and to see that the overt nutcases do not run roughshod, as Wikipediea's anatta/anatman entry has shown (and it is still a problem but not as bad as it used to be).

Metta.lk's translations are most often at best rough first drafts and illustrate why it is important that highly trained individuals should be involved with translation. Supporting Ven Bodhi might be a better option.

The bottom line is that it is going to cost something to bring out this material in whatever format, and we should be willing to support that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cooran
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by cooran »

To have the internet you must first have electricity. Then comes the ability to pay for the electricity. Then comes the cost of buying a computer weighed up against the cost of an electric water pump, lighting, cooking facilities or such.

"Some 1.6 billion people, about one quarter of the world?s population, have no access to electricity today. Eighty percent of these people live in rural areas of the developing world, mainly in South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa where rapid urban migration and population growth will occur over the next several decades."
Source: IEA, "The Developing World and the Electricity Challenge," Jan. 2005, http://www.iea.org/Textbase/work/2005/poverty/blurb.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

That reminds me of the sutta where the Buddha won't teach until the hungry man has been fed.

Curse those corrupt third-world governments.

:jedi:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,

That reminds me of the sutta where the Buddha won't teach until the hungry man has been fed.

Curse those corrupt third-world governments.

:jedi:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Curse the first world governments for their complicity in that corruption.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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pink_trike
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by pink_trike »

tiltbillings wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,

That reminds me of the sutta where the Buddha won't teach until the hungry man has been fed.

Curse those corrupt third-world governments.

:jedi:

Metta,
Retro. :)
Curse the first world governments for their complicity in that corruption.
Complicity is too mild of a word. Creation of that corruption is a bit closer to the truth, imo.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
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pink_trike
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by pink_trike »

Chris wrote:To have the internet you must first have electricity. Then comes the ability to pay for the electricity. Then comes the cost of buying a computer weighed up against the cost of an electric water pump, lighting, cooking facilities or such.

"Some 1.6 billion people, about one quarter of the world?s population, have no access to electricity today.

metta
Chris
Hi Chris,

There are also over a billion illiterate adults in the world, but that doesn't stop us from publishing books that they can't read. Reading and books are statistically more commonly found in western countries with stable homes and communities.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss

- Dawa Gyaltsen

---

Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Individual
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Individual »

Chris wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
Individual wrote:
That seems reasonable, but once a translation of a basic text of Buddhism, like the Visuddhimagga, has existed for several years, I don't understand the justification for not releasing it to the public. It would be strange if this "middleground" involved keeping translations of the most integral, vital texts of Buddhism copyrighted, while releasing small portions and modern commentaries.
You are willing to pony up big bucks to support BPS so that it can make its entire catalogue free, online and so it can continue to publish via hard copy and online copy of future works?

You are willing to pony up big bucks so the Pali Text Society can of offer it works for free online and via hard copies?

Are you willing to pony up big buck so the Vipassana Research Institute can continue make its CD-ROM version of the Pali Canon and all its commentaries (including the Visuddhimagga) to be free?

Someone has to pay for all of this.
Just wanted to again put this thought forward. The Dhamma needs to be for all, not just those in rich western countries with stable homes and communities, and access in some way to the internet.

karuna
Chris
If a person cannot afford internet access, how are they able to afford a paperback set of the Tipitaka? Granted, they could have it donated, but then this comes back to the point: There's greater proliferation of free texts than copyrighted ones. With free texts, they could be copied limitlessly. With copyrighted ones, you always need at least one paid-for copy. So, even the poor benefit when the Dhamma is given freely.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
Nyanatusita
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Nyanatusita »

It is perhaps of interest to know that only in recent history, the last hundred years (after printing of books became common in Asia, etc), the Tipitaka has widely become available in its original language as well as in translation. The Pali Tipitaka was written down by monks in Sri Lanka in the 2 century BCE, before that it was only orally transmitted by monks (some laypeople would also have learnt some suttas by heart but this would be a minority). After the writing down of the Tipitaka monks copied the manuscripts, which is very time-consuming work. Laypeople generally had no access to the Tipitaka because most would not know Pali and there were no complete translations of the Tipitaka available, although there probably were (interlinear) translations of some individual suttas such as the Dhammacakkappavattana, etc. Especially Jataka story translations were popular. Laypeople could get copies of texts but they would have to pay a scribe to copy it, which would have been costly and time-consuming. Manuscript were precious and treasured sacred possessions, handled with great care and respect.
The Mahavamsa(the chronicle which describes how the deeds of kings affected Buddhism in Sri Lanka) mentions that some kings has the Tipitaka copied by scribes and would have festivals in honour of the manuscripts. Some gave copied manuscripts to the Sangha and some kings rewarded monks for copying manuscripts by giving land to them. For the great majority of laypeople the way to learn the Dhamma would be to come to the temple and listen to sermons given by monks. If they really wanted to learn more then they would normally have to become monks or nuns and stay in a monastery. So, the Tipitaka and other Pali texts were only accessible to an elite minority.
In contrast, nowadays, many people in developed countries are used to have immediate access to any information they want at any time and any place through the internet and other media. If they can't get what they want immediately then this leads to frustration and anger. It is good to reflect on how privileged and fortunate we are nowadays to have access to so many free and inexpensive resources. Many people in the past would envy us. Some might have wondered how we could handle such large amounts of information without becoming confused.
Bh Nt
Individual
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?

Post by Individual »

Nyanatusita wrote:It is perhaps of interest to know that only in recent history, the last hundred years (after printing of books became common in Asia, etc), the Tipitaka has widely become available in its original language as well as in translation. The Pali Tipitaka was written down by monks in Sri Lanka in the 2 century BCE, before that it was only orally transmitted by monks (some laypeople would also have learnt some suttas by heart but this would be a minority). After the writing down of the Tipitaka monks copied the manuscripts, which is very time-consuming work. Laypeople generally had no access to the Tipitaka because most would not know Pali and there were no complete translations of the Tipitaka available, although there probably were (interlinear) translations of some individual suttas such as the Dhammacakkappavattana, etc. Especially Jataka story translations were popular. Laypeople could get copies of texts but they would have to pay a scribe to copy it, which would have been costly and time-consuming. Manuscript were precious and treasured sacred possessions, handled with great care and respect.
The Mahavamsa(the chronicle which describes how the deeds of kings affected Buddhism in Sri Lanka) mentions that some kings has the Tipitaka copied by scribes and would have festivals in honour of the manuscripts. Some gave copied manuscripts to the Sangha and some kings rewarded monks for copying manuscripts by giving land to them. For the great majority of laypeople the way to learn the Dhamma would be to come to the temple and listen to sermons given by monks. If they really wanted to learn more then they would normally have to become monks or nuns and stay in a monastery. So, the Tipitaka and other Pali texts were only accessible to an elite minority.
In contrast, nowadays, many people in developed countries are used to have immediate access to any information they want at any time and any place through the internet and other media. If they can't get what they want immediately then this leads to frustration and anger. It is good to reflect on how privileged and fortunate we are nowadays to have access to so many free and inexpensive resources. Many people in the past would envy us. Some might have wondered how we could handle such large amounts of information without becoming confused.
Bh Nt
That's a good point.
The best things in life aren't things.

The Diamond Sutra
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