There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
-
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
I've considered in the past helping out Metta.lk. And of course, editing a Tipitaka wiki doesn't take any serious amount of resources.tiltbillings wrote:There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
- pink_trike
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Switching to print-on-demand publishing technology (from typesetting-based publishing) lowers the cost of print publishing drastically with the added benefit of generating an electronic document that can be easily offered for free online. Kindelizing the output of the print-on-demand document would drastically lower the price of the book making it available to a much larger market. These two steps would generate increased capital that could be used for further translation and electronic publishing initiatives. Individual is correct. The world has changed, to the advantage of small organizations with limited funds. Everything that Individual suggests is accurate and achievable.tiltbillings wrote:There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Just wanted to again put this thought forward. The Dhamma needs to be for all, not just those in rich western countries with stable homes and communities, and access in some way to the internet.tiltbillings wrote:You are willing to pony up big bucks to support BPS so that it can make its entire catalogue free, online and so it can continue to publish via hard copy and online copy of future works?Individual wrote:
That seems reasonable, but once a translation of a basic text of Buddhism, like the Visuddhimagga, has existed for several years, I don't understand the justification for not releasing it to the public. It would be strange if this "middleground" involved keeping translations of the most integral, vital texts of Buddhism copyrighted, while releasing small portions and modern commentaries.
You are willing to pony up big bucks so the Pali Text Society can of offer it works for free online and via hard copies?
Are you willing to pony up big buck so the Vipassana Research Institute can continue make its CD-ROM version of the Pali Canon and all its commentaries (including the Visuddhimagga) to be free?
Someone has to pay for all of this.
karuna
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- tiltbillings
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- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
But there still is a cost to be borne by somebody or somebodies.pink_trike wrote: Individual is correct. The world has changed, to the advantage of small organizations with limited funds. Everything that Individual suggests is accurate and achievable.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- retrofuturist
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Greetings Chris,
Interesting times.
Metta,
Retro.
Theoretically, as the price of technology comes down, getting these people internet access may be cheaper than getting them Dhamma books.Chris wrote:Just wanted to again put this thought forward. The Dhamma needs to be for all, not just those in rich western countries with stable homes and communities, and access in some way to the internet.
Interesting times.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- tiltbillings
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Yeah, well, with wiki there can be a serious quality issue, not to mention someone has to put in time and money to keep it running and to see that the overt nutcases do not run roughshod, as Wikipediea's anatta/anatman entry has shown (and it is still a problem but not as bad as it used to be).Individual wrote:I've considered in the past helping out Metta.lk. And of course, editing a Tipitaka wiki doesn't take any serious amount of resources.tiltbillings wrote:There is a cost to all of this that has to be paid by someone.Individual wrote: ...if I had either the time, skill, or the resources. How is that relevant?
Metta.lk's translations are most often at best rough first drafts and illustrate why it is important that highly trained individuals should be involved with translation. Supporting Ven Bodhi might be a better option.
The bottom line is that it is going to cost something to bring out this material in whatever format, and we should be willing to support that.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
To have the internet you must first have electricity. Then comes the ability to pay for the electricity. Then comes the cost of buying a computer weighed up against the cost of an electric water pump, lighting, cooking facilities or such.
"Some 1.6 billion people, about one quarter of the world?s population, have no access to electricity today. Eighty percent of these people live in rural areas of the developing world, mainly in South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa where rapid urban migration and population growth will occur over the next several decades."
Source: IEA, "The Developing World and the Electricity Challenge," Jan. 2005, http://www.iea.org/Textbase/work/2005/poverty/blurb.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
"Some 1.6 billion people, about one quarter of the world?s population, have no access to electricity today. Eighty percent of these people live in rural areas of the developing world, mainly in South Asia and sub-Saharan Africa where rapid urban migration and population growth will occur over the next several decades."
Source: IEA, "The Developing World and the Electricity Challenge," Jan. 2005, http://www.iea.org/Textbase/work/2005/poverty/blurb.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
- retrofuturist
- Posts: 27848
- Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
- Contact:
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Greetings Chris,
That reminds me of the sutta where the Buddha won't teach until the hungry man has been fed.
Curse those corrupt third-world governments.
Metta,
Retro.
That reminds me of the sutta where the Buddha won't teach until the hungry man has been fed.
Curse those corrupt third-world governments.
Metta,
Retro.
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Curse the first world governments for their complicity in that corruption.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,
That reminds me of the sutta where the Buddha won't teach until the hungry man has been fed.
Curse those corrupt third-world governments.
Metta,
Retro.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Complicity is too mild of a word. Creation of that corruption is a bit closer to the truth, imo.tiltbillings wrote:Curse the first world governments for their complicity in that corruption.retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,
That reminds me of the sutta where the Buddha won't teach until the hungry man has been fed.
Curse those corrupt third-world governments.
Metta,
Retro.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
- pink_trike
- Posts: 1130
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:29 am
- Contact:
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
Hi Chris,Chris wrote:To have the internet you must first have electricity. Then comes the ability to pay for the electricity. Then comes the cost of buying a computer weighed up against the cost of an electric water pump, lighting, cooking facilities or such.
"Some 1.6 billion people, about one quarter of the world?s population, have no access to electricity today.
metta
Chris
There are also over a billion illiterate adults in the world, but that doesn't stop us from publishing books that they can't read. Reading and books are statistically more commonly found in western countries with stable homes and communities.
Vision is Mind
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
Mind is Empty
Emptiness is Clear Light
Clear Light is Union
Union is Great Bliss
- Dawa Gyaltsen
---
Disclaimer: I'm a non-religious practitioner of Theravada, Mahayana/Vajrayana, and Tibetan Bon Dzogchen mind-training.
-
- Posts: 1970
- Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:19 am
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
If a person cannot afford internet access, how are they able to afford a paperback set of the Tipitaka? Granted, they could have it donated, but then this comes back to the point: There's greater proliferation of free texts than copyrighted ones. With free texts, they could be copied limitlessly. With copyrighted ones, you always need at least one paid-for copy. So, even the poor benefit when the Dhamma is given freely.Chris wrote:Just wanted to again put this thought forward. The Dhamma needs to be for all, not just those in rich western countries with stable homes and communities, and access in some way to the internet.tiltbillings wrote:You are willing to pony up big bucks to support BPS so that it can make its entire catalogue free, online and so it can continue to publish via hard copy and online copy of future works?Individual wrote:
That seems reasonable, but once a translation of a basic text of Buddhism, like the Visuddhimagga, has existed for several years, I don't understand the justification for not releasing it to the public. It would be strange if this "middleground" involved keeping translations of the most integral, vital texts of Buddhism copyrighted, while releasing small portions and modern commentaries.
You are willing to pony up big bucks so the Pali Text Society can of offer it works for free online and via hard copies?
Are you willing to pony up big buck so the Vipassana Research Institute can continue make its CD-ROM version of the Pali Canon and all its commentaries (including the Visuddhimagga) to be free?
Someone has to pay for all of this.
karuna
Chris
-
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- Joined: Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:16 pm
Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
It is perhaps of interest to know that only in recent history, the last hundred years (after printing of books became common in Asia, etc), the Tipitaka has widely become available in its original language as well as in translation. The Pali Tipitaka was written down by monks in Sri Lanka in the 2 century BCE, before that it was only orally transmitted by monks (some laypeople would also have learnt some suttas by heart but this would be a minority). After the writing down of the Tipitaka monks copied the manuscripts, which is very time-consuming work. Laypeople generally had no access to the Tipitaka because most would not know Pali and there were no complete translations of the Tipitaka available, although there probably were (interlinear) translations of some individual suttas such as the Dhammacakkappavattana, etc. Especially Jataka story translations were popular. Laypeople could get copies of texts but they would have to pay a scribe to copy it, which would have been costly and time-consuming. Manuscript were precious and treasured sacred possessions, handled with great care and respect.
The Mahavamsa(the chronicle which describes how the deeds of kings affected Buddhism in Sri Lanka) mentions that some kings has the Tipitaka copied by scribes and would have festivals in honour of the manuscripts. Some gave copied manuscripts to the Sangha and some kings rewarded monks for copying manuscripts by giving land to them. For the great majority of laypeople the way to learn the Dhamma would be to come to the temple and listen to sermons given by monks. If they really wanted to learn more then they would normally have to become monks or nuns and stay in a monastery. So, the Tipitaka and other Pali texts were only accessible to an elite minority.
In contrast, nowadays, many people in developed countries are used to have immediate access to any information they want at any time and any place through the internet and other media. If they can't get what they want immediately then this leads to frustration and anger. It is good to reflect on how privileged and fortunate we are nowadays to have access to so many free and inexpensive resources. Many people in the past would envy us. Some might have wondered how we could handle such large amounts of information without becoming confused.
Bh Nt
The Mahavamsa(the chronicle which describes how the deeds of kings affected Buddhism in Sri Lanka) mentions that some kings has the Tipitaka copied by scribes and would have festivals in honour of the manuscripts. Some gave copied manuscripts to the Sangha and some kings rewarded monks for copying manuscripts by giving land to them. For the great majority of laypeople the way to learn the Dhamma would be to come to the temple and listen to sermons given by monks. If they really wanted to learn more then they would normally have to become monks or nuns and stay in a monastery. So, the Tipitaka and other Pali texts were only accessible to an elite minority.
In contrast, nowadays, many people in developed countries are used to have immediate access to any information they want at any time and any place through the internet and other media. If they can't get what they want immediately then this leads to frustration and anger. It is good to reflect on how privileged and fortunate we are nowadays to have access to so many free and inexpensive resources. Many people in the past would envy us. Some might have wondered how we could handle such large amounts of information without becoming confused.
Bh Nt
-
- Posts: 1970
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Re: Why isn't the Visuddhimagga free?
That's a good point.Nyanatusita wrote:It is perhaps of interest to know that only in recent history, the last hundred years (after printing of books became common in Asia, etc), the Tipitaka has widely become available in its original language as well as in translation. The Pali Tipitaka was written down by monks in Sri Lanka in the 2 century BCE, before that it was only orally transmitted by monks (some laypeople would also have learnt some suttas by heart but this would be a minority). After the writing down of the Tipitaka monks copied the manuscripts, which is very time-consuming work. Laypeople generally had no access to the Tipitaka because most would not know Pali and there were no complete translations of the Tipitaka available, although there probably were (interlinear) translations of some individual suttas such as the Dhammacakkappavattana, etc. Especially Jataka story translations were popular. Laypeople could get copies of texts but they would have to pay a scribe to copy it, which would have been costly and time-consuming. Manuscript were precious and treasured sacred possessions, handled with great care and respect.
The Mahavamsa(the chronicle which describes how the deeds of kings affected Buddhism in Sri Lanka) mentions that some kings has the Tipitaka copied by scribes and would have festivals in honour of the manuscripts. Some gave copied manuscripts to the Sangha and some kings rewarded monks for copying manuscripts by giving land to them. For the great majority of laypeople the way to learn the Dhamma would be to come to the temple and listen to sermons given by monks. If they really wanted to learn more then they would normally have to become monks or nuns and stay in a monastery. So, the Tipitaka and other Pali texts were only accessible to an elite minority.
In contrast, nowadays, many people in developed countries are used to have immediate access to any information they want at any time and any place through the internet and other media. If they can't get what they want immediately then this leads to frustration and anger. It is good to reflect on how privileged and fortunate we are nowadays to have access to so many free and inexpensive resources. Many people in the past would envy us. Some might have wondered how we could handle such large amounts of information without becoming confused.
Bh Nt