The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
Sylvester
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Sylvester »

Many thanks tilt. I hesitated to use the translations, as I was uncertain if I would be wading into controversy, particularly for "having overcome, in this world, grief and covetousness" (Ven Soma's) or "having put away grief and covetousness for the world" (Rhys Davids'). Even "upacara" presents difficulty for me, since I have a choice between "access" and "neighbourhood" and the latter does carry broader implications. But there you have it.

I'm generally inclined to agree with your assessment of those methods based on "momentary" samadhi being wetter than they should be. Some reports seem to indicate that such meditators do obtain the Jhana factors, whilst retaining the ability for discursive thought (a la Anupada Sutta, MN 111 perhaps?). At least that is how Sayadaw u Pandita presents it -

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pandita/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The issue with the Vipassana Jhanas (with or without discursive thought) could perhaps be simplified to this - are they described in the suttas or the Abhidhamma or Commentaries? For that matter, how is "momentary" samadhi related to Vipassana Jhana?

But I suppose on the practical level, we could also dispense with such nit-picking and stay with whatever works for us.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

It's amusing how this same debate comes up again and again.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jon ... jhana.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In Sri Lanka, some 30 years ago, three monks criticised the pure vipassana method taught by Mahasi Sayadaw. Subsequently, one of them, in an article to the World Buddhism magazine in 1966, again criticized the method and put forward that jhana was necessary for vipassana. Sayadaw U Nyanuttara of Myanmar in a series of replies explained the position of khanika (momentary) concentration and explained why jhana was not necessary in accordance with scriptural and commentarial evidence. Eventually, the Mahasi Organisation published both the Criticisms and Replies in a book for the benefit of posterity.
[Sayadaw U Nyannutara: "Satipatthana Vipassana Meditation: Criticisms and Replies."]
Coincidentally, one of my friend picked up a copy for me in Malaysia recently. It tends to read rather similar to the endless discussions on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and on E-Sangha, as in http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=86236" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

None of these discussion are likely to change anyone's mind, and I've long ago lost interest in the argument. Obviously I trust my teachers more than opinions expressed on the Internet, since I've experienced them guiding me through various barriers and rough patches.

I generally agree with:
But I suppose on the practical level, we could also dispense with such nit-picking and stay with whatever works for us.
With the proviso that without at least some occasional guidance it's possible to be rather deluded about what is going on. I think Steve Armstrong talks about this in one of the talks on Vipassana Jhanas that Tilt linked to above.

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Assaji
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sylvester,
The "removal" of the Hindrances being achieved through the cultivation of the opposite qualities would mean attaining the Jhanas, since the factors of the 1st Jhana are posited to be the factors that oppose the respective Hindrances (at least from the Visudhimagga typology).
There are three main ways to abandon the unskilfull qualities:

- tadanga-pahana - by cultivating the opposite skillful qualities - on the stage of developing virtue;
- vikkhambhana-pahana - by cultivating jhanas - on the stage of developing concentration;
- samuccheda-pahana - by finding and removing the prerequisites of theor arising - on the stage of developing wisdom.

http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/pahaana.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Tadanga-pahana" is largely forgotten nowadays, and can be found in early texts like

Sallekha sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Patisambhidamagga http://bps.lk/bp_library/bp502s/bp502_part3.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It is the main instrument for preliminary removal of coarse hindrances.

Visuddhimagga typology you mention is rather late.
What do you think about the Culavedalla Sutta's proposition that the Satipatthanas are the "basis" of samadhi?
Indeed the prime purpose of Satipatthana is to develop the "Seven factors of Awakening" (bojjhanga), which are largely jhana factors. 'Sati' is used first of all to keep in mind the basis of concentration.

Satipatthana centers on the typology of things that one can be aware of (sampajanna) during practice, and doesn't describe other facets of practice.

In the similar Anapanasati sutta, the 'sati' is always about remembering the breath, but the range of phenomena one is aware of (sampajanna) varies.

The real-life example, with multiple facets, is given in Dvedhavitakka sutta:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In this sutta, awareness (sampajanna) is directed to distinguishing two kinds of thinking, two kinds of menal qualities, skillful and unskillful.
Do the Commentaries draw a distinction between this aspect of Satipatthana from the aspect explained for MN 10?
As far as I remember, the Commentaries explain that the first three satipatthanas can be used for development of either samatha or vipassana, and the fourth one is only for developing vipassana.

There are many references to samatha practice in the Commentary:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro
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BlackBird
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by BlackBird »

A good simile is that of the torch. One needs a torch to see things, and if one's concentration is low then it's like the battery running out on the torch - You can only see things dimly. But if concentration is strong, then it's like have some really good long lasting batteries, one can see lot's of things.

"Dry" vipassana is maybe a redundant term, because in order to practise vipassana one must develop at the least, strong access concentration which is described in the following passage:
Ven. Pa Auk Tawya Sayadaw wrote: As he continues to meditate and develop deeper concentration
based on the four elements he finds that his body begins to emit light
at first this light maybe grey like smoke or bluish white, but as he
continues to discern the four elements in that light he finds his whole
body appears to be white. Then as he continues to discern the four
elements in the white form of the body his whole body becomes
clear like a block of ice. At this point he has developed what is
called access concentration.
- http://what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Pa_ ... ibbana.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With regards to the whole insight vs. jhana debate:
Venerable Bhikkhu Moneyya wrote: Whether you wish to complete all, some or none of these
samatha practices is a matter of personal preference. Mastery
of these practices provides a solid base for the cultivation of
insight by strengthening your concentration, intensifying your
light of wisdom and assisting in the development of other
positive qualities, such as faith, energy, tranquillity,
compassion, dispassion and equanimity. With a solid base of
samatha practices, you will be able to make swift progress in
your practice of vipassana. When you feel you have mastered
a sufficient number of samatha practices and are ready to make
the transition to vipassana, you may begin the practice of four elements
meditation.
- http://paauk.org/files/tt_web_03mar07.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Personal preference. Both equally valid, both leading to the same goal. Simple. Personally can't see what all the fuss has been about over the last however many decades :shrug:

Metta
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Sylvester
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Sylvester »

Thank you Avuso Dmytro for the very helpful dissection.

What I'm trying to figure out is how the "samatha" aspects of Satipatthana are brought to fruition. The Commentaries interpret the "abandoning of the grief and covetousness for the world" to mean suppression of the 5 Hindrances by absorption. Yet, I imagine that this are precisely the goals of samatha as is traditionally presented by those who equate samatha with Jhana.

So, it seems rather circular that the first 3 sets of satipatthanas can be used to cultivate samadhi, but the formulaic description assumes that the 5 Hindrances have already been abandoned, so why bother using the 3 Satiptthanas to cultivate samatha?

Do you think there is any significance to the fact that the Anapanasati Sutta does not contain the “Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam" formula?
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Assaji
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sylvester,
The Commentaries interpret the "abandoning of the grief and covetousness for the world" to mean suppression of the 5 Hindrances by absorption.
That's a supplementary method, the main one is developing the opposite (tadanga) skillful qualities, as we have discussed earlier. So there's no cicularity.

Here's the place of Satipatthana in the course of practice, as described in Kundaliya sutta:

"'But what are the qualities that, when developed & pursued, lead to the culmination of clear knowing & release?'

'The seven factors for Awakening...'

'And what are the qualities that... lead to the culmination of the seven factors for Awakening?'

'The four frames of reference...'

'And what are the qualities that... lead to the culmination of the four frames of reference?'

'The three courses of right conduct...'

'And what are the qualities that... lead to the culmination of the three courses of right conduct?'

'Restraint of the senses... And how does restraint of the senses, when developed & pursued, lead to the culmination of the three courses of right conduct? There is the case where a monk, on seeing a pleasant form with the eye, does not hanker after it, does not delight in it, does not give rise to passion for it. Unmoved in body & unmoved in mind, he is inwardly well composed & well released. On seeing an unpleasant form with the eye, he is not upset, his mind is not unsettled, his feelings are not wounded, his mind does not become resentful. Unmoved in body & unmoved in mind, he is inwardly well composed & well released.

On hearing a pleasant... unpleasant sound with the ear... On smelling a pleasant... unpleasant smell with the nose... On tasting a pleasant... unpleasant taste with the tongue... On feeling a pleasant... unpleasant tactile sensation with the body...

On cognizing a pleasant idea with the intellect, he does not hanker after it, does not delight in it, does not give rise to passion for it. Unmoved in body & unmoved in mind, he is inwardly well composed & well released. On cognizing an unpleasant idea with the intellect, he is not upset, his mind is not unsettled, his feelings are not wounded, his mind does not become resentful. Unmoved in body & unmoved in mind, he is inwardly well composed & well released. This is how, Kundaliya, restraint of the senses, when developed & pursued, leads to the culmination of the three courses of right conduct.

And how are the three courses of right conduct developed & pursued so as to lead to the culmination of the four frames of reference? There is the case where a monk abandons wrong conduct in terms of his deeds and develops right conduct in terms of his deeds; abandons wrong conduct in terms of his speech and develops right conduct in terms of his speech; abandons wrong conduct in terms of his thoughts and develops right conduct in terms of his thoughts. This is how, Kundaliya, the three courses of right conduct, when developed & pursued, lead to the culmination of the four frames of reference."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... ml#part2-g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta, Dmytro
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Sylvester »

Many thanks!

So it appears from Ven Thanissaro's analysis that the relationship of Satipatthana and the Bojjhangas would be that they turn in a spiral around one another. That looks like a very reasonable interpretation to me, and does avoid the difficulties I face in trying to read the Satipatthana Suttas linearly.

Based on this spiral model, do you think it is fair to say that the "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam" formula is not indicative of the pinnacle of the abandonment of the Hindrances, but a progressive one? Or must we interpret that stock phrase as referring to the ideal state, as the suttas generally are wont to lay out ideal sets?

Do you know of any other suttas, besides the Culavedalla Sutta, that makes a direct linkage between the Satipatthanas and Samadhi? As you rightly pointed out earlier, the Satipatthanas develop the Bojjhangas which are in turn largely comprised of factors related to Jhana. Now, I accept that that is a very strong correlative relationship, but perhaps you could point out some suttas that explicitly make the link.

:namaste:
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Assaji »

So it appears from Ven Thanissaro's analysis that the relationship of Satipatthana and the Bojjhangas would be that they turn in a spiral around one another.
I find the spiral model obvious and fairly useless. How one can apply it?

In every meditation session I start from the coarse hindrances, and them move to the subtle ones, as described in:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The interplay of approaches is described in:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you know of any other suttas, besides the Culavedalla Sutta, that makes a direct linkage between the Satipatthanas and Samadhi? As you rightly pointed out earlier, the Satipatthanas develop the Bojjhangas which are in turn largely comprised of factors related to Jhana. Now, I accept that that is a very strong correlative relationship, but perhaps you could point out some suttas that explicitly make the link.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .horn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by fig tree »

Jechbi wrote: In light of this, I'm wondering whether others here might have knowledge about discussions or debate regarding the authenticity of the Satipatthana Sutta.
I think it's best not to treat the authenticity of suttas as being a black-and-white matter. Comparing Chinese and Pali texts which are of essentially the same discourse gives us an idea of the kind of variations that occurred in at least one of them since they parted ways. Fortunately, it seems the transmission has been pretty good. But there are differences; some suttas are described with a different setting. Someone checked the counterpart to the culavedalla and mahavedalla suttas and there, some of the questions in one sutta in the Pali are in the other in Chinese and vice-versa. This kind of thing surely doesn't make the suttas or Chinese sutras "inauthentic", even if there's some kind of inaccuracy, in the sense that the discourse didn't occur exactly as described.

One of Ajahn Sujatto's examples of modification of the canon is a modern one; he says that a version was created in which the text of the mahasatipatthana sutta (DN 22) is given for the satipatthana sutta (MN 10). The difference is just that the former includes an elaboration of the four noble truths at a certain point. I don't remember his suggesting that any of the changes he suspects of having been made in the satipatthana sutta were anything but similarly well-intentioned insertions of what seemed further useful and edifying material for the person learning to recite the nikaya. If he's right then a certain shift in emphasis has crept in, however.

His comparison with the satipatthana sutta with similar Chinese sutras and other similar texts (there's a bit in the prajnaparamita sutra that looks like the "mindfulness of body" part of the satipatthana sutta) certainly is interesting. He took the time to explain his thinking at some length, so if you care you should probably read what he wrote.

I think it at least reinforces our basis for confidence in the part of the sutta that are the most consistent with the other versions, which are after all pretty important as meditation instructions. If it seems vital to one whether the Buddha did on that particular occasion present for example mindfulness of the four postures as a way of being mindful of body, or mindfulness of the five aggregates as part of mindfulness of phenomena, well, feel free to weigh the evidence oneself, but I would suggest also considering why one has gotten a feeling that this is required. I'd love to have a video of the incident as it originally occurred, but we have to make do with what we've got.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Tree. Some good points.
fig tree wrote:He took the time to explain his thinking at some length, so if you care you should probably read what he wrote.
I do care. It's a 258-page document, however, and there are other things on my reading list ahead of it. I spent about 45 minutes paging through and looking for highlights, so at least I read a chunk of it. My primary motivation for skimming it was to see if he elaborated on his statement that the sutta is a "forgery," as he said clearly in his talk. In the book, he takes a more thoughtful and measured approach, as you correctly observe.
fig tree wrote:If it seems vital to one whether the Buddha did on that particular occasion present for example mindfulness of the four postures as a way of being mindful of body ... I would suggest also considering why one has gotten a feeling that this is required.
How big an issue has that been?

One thing that occurs to me as a result of all this discussion is that clearly, different things are going to happen for different people during meditation, even if they are following the same instructions. This demarcation between insight and tranquility practice to me seems completely dependent on the individual engaged in practice. I wonder if the underlying conversation is occuring, as Mike suggests, between people who approach these suttas from two different perspectives.
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Books are only books!

Post by martinfrank »

Hi!

I find the words "forgery" and "fake" inappropriate, because

1. the Buddhist texts are exactly this, "texts". They are not contracts, nor legal papers, nor do they come with an attached warranty.
2. The words "forgery" and "fake" imply that somebody is disappointed or feels deceived, but by whom? Did he/she pay the good monks/nuns and laymen/laywomen who were so sweet to carry those precious texts through 2500 years to us? Did these monks/nuns and laymen/laywomen promise "you" that they would make no mistake?
3. These texts have gone through wars, earthquakes, genocides, pests, fires and floods. It weren't always the wisest or the most learned monks/nuns, laymen/laywomen who survived. Please be gentle with our good friends who passed away. Maybe they made mistakes. They might have stuck together the wrong palm leaves; they might have added passages they thought somebody had forgotten; maybe they even changed some words they thought somebody else had copied wrongly. Is that faking or forgery? Did you ever try to learn by heart or copy the Abhidhamma Nikaya at > 40° Celsius in a badly lit non-A/C room? Please try!

4. The texts went through a phase of oral transmission. Oral transmission carries the danger that the person memorizing the texts will without willing it, make all similar passages equal, and will also without willing it, replace shorter versions of the same passage with longer versions.
5. The texts went through a phase of palm leaf transmission with all the problems of broken strings and loose leaves. The texts were real leaves in real baskets. Many accidents happened and the persons who tried to repair the accidents often didn't have "another basket" (or a CD) to check whether they were getting the broken sequence or the missing leaves right. Not to speak of insects eating whole words...
6. The texts went through centuries of copying, see 3. above.

I think the historical view is important and can add to our understanding. Unhappily, it will also lead to a lot of unhappiness, because it is a very Western way of thinking, and not acceptable to many traditional Buddhists in Asia. Please be gentle and soft-spoken!

Regarding meditation, I believe it is true that there are some teachers or schools who/which are teaching Vipassana as the only true Buddhist meditation. But the main Theravada Buddhist instruction manual, the "Visuddhimaggo" doesn't limit meditation instructions to this, nor do the meditation teachers at Wat Maha That and many other traditional meditation centers all over Asia.

Finally, we need Sila, Samadhi and Pañña. Sila is more than Vinayo, Samadhi more than Vipassana, and Pañña is much more than Pali. For me, it includes the cool-hearted knowledge that books are only books.

Have a wonderful day!

Martin
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Re: Books are only books!

Post by Paññāsikhara »

martinfrank wrote:Hi!

...

Have a wonderful day!

Martin
Wow, that's a great first post Martin! :twothumbsup:
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Brizzy »

Reflecting on the vast array of suttas within the pali canon, I have come to a personal conclusion about the satipatthana sutta's. Bearing in mind the extensive material found within the Samyutta Nikaya concerning satipatthana and explaining things wonderfully, I personally feel the Buddha's teachings are more cohesive and applicable if the two satipatthana suttas were either dropped altogether or reduced to Bhante Sujato's version. As a personal sentiment, it strikes me as poignant that the sutta I feel needs to be set aside was at one time believed by me to be the most important sutta and contained all the Buddha's teachings. Now it strikes me as illogical in its framework and geared to promote doctrines that were formed much later.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Brizzy,
can you say more?

one thing I said recently regarding satipatthana is
the satipatthana sutta can actually be seen as the application of the Dhamma Tetrad found in the Anapanasati sutta to the areas of the other tetrads, as one interpretation.
so the satipatthana sutta can be seen as individual teachings (which I believe I suggested in this thread before, or a similar one), what do you think of this being an explanation of the sutta?

To be honest I do have an interest in this area that is why I am responding, but not interested in proving either way.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by ancientbuddhism »

In addition to what has been mentioned I recall Ven. Ajahn Sujato’s theses claimed to rule out the DN and MN versions of Satipaṭṭhāna as later because of the presence of the so-called 'insight refrain' (claimed to be added later), when compared to its absence in the Satipaṭṭhāna Saṃyutta and Aṅguttara Nikāya discourses.

The .pdf version of A History of Mindfulness is not searchable in my system, so it is rather tedious to hunt through and find sources. But he mentions this in his blog here.
  • Another late addition to the Pali Satipatthana Sutta is a ‘refrain’ following each meditation, which says one practices contemplating ‘rise and fall’. This is a vipassana practice, which originally belonged to only the final of the four satipatthanas, contemplation of dhammas.

    The contemplation of dhammas has also undergone large scale expansion. The original text included just the five hindrances and the seven awakening factors. The five aggregates, six sense media, and four noble truths were added later.

    Each version of the Satipatthana Sutta is based on a shared ancestor, which has been expanded in different ways by the schools. This process continued for several centuries following the Buddha’s death. Of the texts we have today, the closest to the ancestral version is that contained in the Pali Abhidhamma Vibhanga, if we leave aside the Abhidhammic elaborations.
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