The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by DNS »

Dmytro wrote: There are two main valid methods for establishing the relative dating of a sutta:
- comparison with Chinese counterparts;
- linguistic analysis of the words and grammatical forms used.
Anything else is at best a hypothesis, and at worst an empty speculation.
Since the Chinese versions of this sutta are pretty much similar to Pali sutta, all this pathologic anatomy doesn't matter.
Also, to add to the above points, Thomas Rhys Davids (founder of Pali Text Society) considers the oldest texts to be those in the first four Nikayas, DN, MN, AN, SN and the Satipatthana Sutta is in DN & MN. He also considers those sayings and teachings which are repeated as evidence for an older text. The Satipatthana Sutta is in the DN, MN, and mentioned in the SN.

Thus, nothing to worry about, clearly Buddhavacana and also one of the most important texts of Buddhism.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Jechbi »

retrofuturist wrote:Have you read this?

'A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity in the Satipatthana Sutta' by Ajahn Sujato
This is identical to the second link in the OP, thanks. I'm only skimmed it, though.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Jechbi »

Having re-read the responses to this thread, I wanted to say thanks for all the insightful comments here. I think the term "forgery" probably is too harsh, simply because in common usage it implies "completely fake." But even Ajahn Sujato appears to agree that the contents of the sutta reflect important elements of Dhamma teaching as they were passed down in this particular tradition. I believe he's using the term "forgery" in a narrower sense and with regards to precise origin.

Best wishes for your practice ...
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Cittasanto »

Jechbi wrote:Having re-read the responses to this thread, I wanted to say thanks for all the insightful comments here. I think the term "forgery" probably is too harsh, simply because in common usage it implies "completely fake." But even Ajahn Sujato appears to agree that the contents of the sutta reflect important elements of Dhamma teaching as they were passed down in this particular tradition. I believe he's using the term "forgery" in a narrower sense and with regards to precise origin.

Best wishes for your practice ...
Hi Jechbi,
maybe the word fabricated may of been a better choice, as not all things that are fabricated are fake. but he did use forgery so maybe it has a slightly different meaning in Australia which is closer to fabrication in some respect?
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

"Forgery" is a pretty strong word here in Australia too.

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Cittasanto »

Good to know but that does leave the question as to why Ajahn used it?
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by mikenz66 »

Manapa wrote:Good to know but that does leave the question as to why Ajahn used it?
Perhaps, in part, being a student of Ajahn Brahm, he takes the opportunity to argue against the "dry insight" (without Jhana) approach discussed in the Commentaries and championed by the Burmese schools (and by some of Ajahn Chah's other students), who quote the Satipatthana Sutta as evidence for the importance the Buddha ascribed to this approach.

His book/PDF is, after all, entitled: "A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity in the Satipatthana Sutta" and as I recall he argues that if you only keep what is common to all versions of the Sutta from various sects you are left with more "Tranquillity" (Jhana-inducing) practises (e.g. mindfulness of breathing) than "Insight" practises (such as contemplation of the khandhas), whereas in the Theravada tradition it is the other way around.

Mike
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Cittasanto »

mean this first line jokingly, did you just save yourself a heck of a lot of research and time? :tongue:

that seams like a simple teaching and common sense! someone has done a comparison of three versions I noticed on another thread a while ago here is a copy if anyone wants it.

although if you remove all the parts that are not in each sutta/sutra version including the various Abhidhammas you are left with only the impurities of the Body and Bhojangas (see attachment)
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Satipatthana-2.pdf
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Sylvester »

mikenz66 wrote:
Manapa wrote:Good to know but that does leave the question as to why Ajahn used it?
Perhaps, in part, being a student of Ajahn Brahm, he takes the opportunity to argue against the "dry insight" (without Jhana) approach discussed in the Commentaries and championed by the Burmese schools (and by some of Ajahn Chah's other students), who quote the Satipatthana Sutta as evidence for the importance the Buddha ascribed to this approach.

His book/PDF is, after all, entitled: "A History of Mindfulness: How Insight Worsted Tranquillity in the Satipatthana Sutta" and as I recall he argues that if you only keep what is common to all versions of the Sutta from various sects you are left with more "Tranquillity" (Jhana-inducing) practises (e.g. mindfulness of breathing) than "Insight" practises (such as contemplation of the khandhas), whereas in the Theravada tradition it is the other way around.

Mike
I wonder if the "dry insight" approach may not actually be just ONE monolithic approach, as expounded by some of the contemporary Vipassana schools.

Would it be correct to say that the locus classicus of the "dry insight" method expounded by the Commentaries would be to use "upacara samadhi" as the basis for the insight practices? I recall that Ajahn Brahm mentions that the basis for the work in the Satipatthana Sutta would be that the meditator "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam". Apparently, the Commentaries interpret this to mean abandoning the 5 Hindrances (or just the 2 main ones?). The states where this holds is upacara samadhi and Jhana.

Contrast this to the methods that have dispensed with the traditional requirement for upacara samadhi and are happy to work with "khanika samadhi" as the basis for the satipatthanas. Would that fulfill the pre-requisite of "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam"?

Another related issue would be whether the satipatthanas are supposed to be the basis for insight, or do they do something else? The Culavedalla Sutta says this -

""Lady, what is concentration? What is the basis of concentration? What is the equipment of concentration? What is the development of concentration?

"Unification of mind, friend Visakha, is concentration; the four foundations of mindfulness are the basis of concentration; the four right kinds of striving are the equipment of concentration; the repetition, development and cultivation of these same states is the development of concentration therein."

- Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation, but do note that Ajahn Thanissaro translates a little differently. The latter has "theme" in place of "basis".

This creates a sort of chicken-&-egg situation. If satipatthana requires "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam" as per the Satipatthana Sutta, how will satipatthana be the basis for samadhi as per the Culavedalla Sutta? Or might this suggest that there are 2 aspects of satipatthana - one for the development of samadhi, and the other for the development of vipassana after the 5 Hindrances are abandoned?
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sylvester wrote:
I wonder if the "dry insight" approach may not actually be just ONE monolithic approach, as expounded by some of the contemporary Vipassana schools.
Probably not, given that it is outlined in the Visuddhimagga, but what do you mean by this?
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Kare »

Whenever this "eternal" discussion of concentration versus insight turns up, I like to refer to the Yuganaddhasutta:

On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!"

"Yes, friend," the monks responded.

Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four?

"There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it — his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed.

"Whoever — monk or nun — declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths."

The translation of Thanissaro can be discussed, but the main point is clear: You can start with concentration, you can start with insight, you can develop them both in harmony, or you can start with a more intellectual approach.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Sylvester »

tiltbillings wrote:
Sylvester wrote:
I wonder if the "dry insight" approach may not actually be just ONE monolithic approach, as expounded by some of the contemporary Vipassana schools.
Probably not, given that it is outlined in the Visuddhimagga, but what do you mean by this?

The inelegance of my expression is purely my fault.

What I meant to suggest was that contemporary 'dry insight' work (based on the khanika samadhi model) may actually be 'drier' than dry insight as understood by the Commentaries. I don't know of any system of Buddhist meditation where the 5 Hindrances are taught to be abandoned anywhere else other than upacara samadhi and Jhana. If that is indeed the case, then work based on khanika samadhi must be quite tough with the Hindrances intruding.

Which leads to another point in the 3rd and 4th Patthanas outlined in DN 22 and MN 10, ie the contemplation of lust etc and the Hindrances. How does one contemplate the lust and the Hindrances as if they were presently available if one has "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam"?

Or is this a case that (assuming Ac Sujato is incorrect in positing that some of the "padding" in the Sutta is late) the meditator's contemplation/sati is not of present Hindrances, but of Hindrances past? Perhaps the Pali experts could shed some light on how the verb "sati" relates chronologically with the Patthanas, ie must the sati be simultaneous with the objects?

I was just looking at the Satipatthanasa.myutta and the 104 suttas in there seem very, very skeletal compared to DN 22 and MN 10.
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Assaji »

Hi Sylvester,
How does one contemplate the lust and the Hindrances as if they were presently available if one has "Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam"?
'Vineyya' here does not mean complete removal. It refers to the removal of preliminary hindrances, mostly by cultivation of the opposite qualities.

""Having overcome" refers to the discipline of knocking out an evil quality by its opposite good (that is by dealing with each category of evil separately) or through the overcoming of evil part by part [tadangavinaya] and through the disciplining or the overcoming of the passions by suppression in absorption [vikkhambhana vinaya]."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... wayof.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for the term 'sati', there's a thread:
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index. ... opic=26574" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by Sylvester »

Thanks Dmytro.

I agree with Ven Soma's commentarial exposition. The "removal" of the Hindrances being achieved through the cultivation of the opposite qualities would mean attaining the Jhanas, since the factors of the 1st Jhana are posited to be the factors that oppose the respective Hindrances (at least from the Visudhimagga typology).

I posted the hypothetical to invite a discussion on the possibility of using the Satipatthana exercises (as in DN 22 and MN 10) for what is popularly called "present moment" awareness. If the "present moment" were marked by a suppression of the 5 Hindrances (ie post-Jhana samadhi, which I trust is what Ven Soma's commentary means by "suppression in absorption"), then it seems that the only plausible type of "sati" that could be performed would be by way of memory/recollection, rather than "present moment" contemplation.

What do you think about the Culavedalla Sutta's proposition that the Satipatthanas are the "basis" of samadhi? Do the Commentaries draw a distinction between this aspect of Satipatthana from the aspect explained for MN 10?
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Re: The Satipatthana Sutta a forgery?

Post by tiltbillings »

Sylvester wrote: What I meant to suggest was that contemporary 'dry insight' work (based on the khanika samadhi model) may actually be 'drier' than dry insight as understood by the Commentaries. I don't know of any system of Buddhist meditation where the 5 Hindrances are taught to be abandoned anywhere else other than upacara samadhi and Jhana. If that is indeed the case, then work based on khanika samadhi must be quite tough with the Hindrances intruding.
(Just a procedural aside from a moderator: With such technical expressions as “upacara samadhi” and “Vineyya Loke Abhijjha-Domanassam,” please give an English translation so those who do not have access to a Pali reference resources will have some idea of what is being talked about. And so those who do have access to such resources don’t have to spend time looking them up.)

(In a non-moderator capacity:) I would argue that the system taught by Mahasi Sayadaw is probably a lot “wetter” than for which it is given credit, considering the notion of “vipassana jhanas” http://www.dharmaseed.org/talks/?q=vipassana+jhanas" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The moment to moment concentration can be very strong, very stable, and as for the hindrances intruding, it is a matter of paying attention, without discursive thought, to what it is that arises.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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