The causes for wisdom

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby ancientbuddhism » Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:02 pm

So the syntax of the fn. fits Bodhi’s introductory notes to Chap. IX of In the Buddha's Words provided 54 pages and one year ago in the present discussion (out of context even then to the questions above it re: satipaṭṭhāna), yet remains unrelated to Vism. XX, 22 where Ñāṇamoli aimed it … that clears things up, yeah.

But I agree with Tilt. Understanding the concepts of Dhamma, as essential as they are to practice, is not the same as direct realisation of what these point to. Nor does contemplative effort require one to “…be able to abstract from the overwhelming mass of facts…” for one to progress in wisdom.
‘yaṃ kiñci dukkhaṃ uppajjamānaṃ uppajjati, sabbaṃ taṃ chandamūlakaṃ chandanidānaṃ. chando hi mūlaṃ dukkhassā’ti.’

“Whatever dukkha arises into existence, all arises rooted in chanda, chanda as its cause, chanda as the root of dukkha. – SN.42.11 Bhadrakasuttaṃ

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

A Handful of Leaves

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:39 pm

I saw this on another thread today.
If I am walking with the firm resolution that I will sit to meditate on the cushion as soon as I arrive home, and I suddenly feel a bowel movement, I will have a “Meditation Vs Defecation” dichotomy, no matter if you call it “false”. At that instant, my mind would contrast the two things as being opposed, entirely different, and with no additional options. Perhaps a moment later I could figure out a third option like meditating while sitting at the WC, and then the dichotomy would vanish.

What is the answer...

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:19 pm

what is the question exactly?
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 5:22 pm

if there was not another feeling of bowel movement would there be any dichotomy?
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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SDC
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:35 pm

The issue is this whole idea of a “formal meditation practice”; that we have to be sitting on a cushion looking swell in order to be productive. It’s the single most constrictive idea about meditation for the non-ariya practitioner.

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SDC
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:37 pm

Kitz, I tried to ask you in another thread, but I think you missed it - what is the source of your signature? I love that line.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:49 pm

SDC wrote:Kitz, I tried to ask you in another thread, but I think you missed it - what is the source of your signature? I love that line.

hi SDC
it is my incorrect phrasing of this quote, i had tried to find it many times, i just googled it now and found the correct one, thanks
Strive ardently,oh man,& burn! Purity comes from burning away the dross.Gold must pass through a crucible in order to be refined.
Vipassana Daily Doha
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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SDC
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby SDC » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:02 pm

Nice. I think your phrasing is better though.

Sorry for the tangent.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Babadhari » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:12 pm

they were (poorly recalled :tongue: ) words that stayed with me, it's nice to finally have the original quote by the very much missed Goenkaji so thank you SDC
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Fri Jan 31, 2014 7:35 am

robertk wrote:I saw this on another thread today.
If I am walking with the firm resolution that I will sit to meditate on the cushion as soon as I arrive home, and I suddenly feel a bowel movement, I will have a “Meditation Vs Defecation” dichotomy, no matter if you call it “false”. At that instant, my mind would contrast the two things as being opposed, entirely different, and with no additional options. Perhaps a moment later I could figure out a third option like meditating while sitting at the WC, and then the dichotomy would vanish.

What is the answer...

My ideal answer is to move your bowels while being mindful of the body.

Furthermore, when going forward & returning, he makes himself fully alert; when looking toward & looking away... when bending & extending his limbs... when carrying his outer cloak, his upper robe & his bowl... when eating, drinking, chewing, & savoring... when urinating & defecating... when walking, standing, sitting, falling asleep, waking up, talking, & remaining silent, he makes himself fully alert.
-MN 10

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Sun Aug 24, 2014 5:31 am

viewtopic.php?f=41&t=21622&p=307697#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness.

Eg
I've been finding that when I maintain mindfulness throughout the day, the sense of "no-self" quickly arises which then leads to aversion. I believe this stems from boredom (the mind enjoys escaping into fantasy) as well as disorientation/confusion from sense of no self. The sense of no self feels like (or leads to?) a mild sense of dissociation, like being in a dream. Incidentally, I practice lu

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:06 am

robertk wrote:http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=21622&p=307697#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness
Certainly the thread you linked points to some serious problematics around the notion of mindfulness, but as we see in this thread you initiated the Sujin-notions of mindfulness, which you extol, also exemplify their own serious problematics in what is meant by mindfulness.
.


++++++++++++++++
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=21622&p=307697#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness
Certainly the thread you linked points to some serious problematics around the notion of mindfulness, but as we see in this thread you initiated the Sujin-notions of mindfulness, which you extol, also exemplify their own serious problematics in what is meant by mindfulness.

What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?

I don't really expect an answer to my first question, BTW, unless you can sum it up into a TLDR version.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:49 am

Mkoll wrote:What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?

A quick summary is that any kind of "trying" to develop mindfulness is deluded and counter productive.

Perhaps this thread spells it out more clearly:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 8&#p216888

:anjali:
Mike

Mkoll
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:59 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mkoll wrote:What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?

A quick summary is that any kind of "trying" to develop mindfulness is deluded and counter productive.

Perhaps this thread spells it out more clearly:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 8&#p216888

:anjali:
Mike

No right effort needed, huh? Sounds like cherry picking the path, to put it nicely.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:10 am

Hmm, you really need to read the threads, because it is more nuanced than that, and the argument revolves around what control is possible over the conditions that lead to right effort, etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p218121

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:53 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, you really need to read the threads,

:jawdrop:

:computerproblem:

:alien:

:hello:

~~~

:focus: whatever that is now...
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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robertk
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:54 am

Mkoll wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, you really need to read the threads,

:jawdrop:

:computerproblem:

:alien:

:hello:

~~~
.

I couldn't understand the meaning, could you explain?

Mkoll
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:47 am

robertk wrote:I couldn't understand the meaning, could you explain?


It was a rather vague joke having to do with feigned and exaggerated indignation that only I probably got because I made it up. I'll explain anyway.

:jawdrop: :computerproblem: = surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"

:alien: = my butting out: "im outta here"

:hello: = my waving goodbye: "laterz"
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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mikenz66
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:23 am

Mkoll wrote:surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"

I don't see any need to be indignant. I think it's an interesting discussion that addresses the important question of to what extent we actually have control over conditions from various points of view. While I have some disagreements with the Sujin model that Robert favours, if you look at the links I gave above, especially my partial transcription of a talk by Ajahn Amaro, you'll see that other teachers do discuss problems with tackling bhavana with wrong view.

:anjali:
Mike


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