Certainly the thread you linked points to some serious problematics around the notion of mindfulness, but as we see in this thread you initiated the Sujin-notions of mindfulness, which you extol, also exemplify their own serious problematics in what is meant by mindfulness.robertk wrote:http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 97#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness
The causes for wisdom
- tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The causes for wisdom
What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?tiltbillings wrote:Certainly the thread you linked points to some serious problematics around the notion of mindfulness, but as we see in this thread you initiated the Sujin-notions of mindfulness, which you extol, also exemplify their own serious problematics in what is meant by mindfulness.robertk wrote:http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 97#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness
I don't really expect an answer to my first question, BTW, unless you can sum it up into a TLDR version.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: The causes for wisdom
A quick summary is that any kind of "trying" to develop mindfulness is deluded and counter productive.Mkoll wrote: What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?
Perhaps this thread spells it out more clearly:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 8&#p216888
Mike
Re: The causes for wisdom
No right effort needed, huh? Sounds like cherry picking the path, to put it nicely.mikenz66 wrote:A quick summary is that any kind of "trying" to develop mindfulness is deluded and counter productive.Mkoll wrote: What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?
Perhaps this thread spells it out more clearly:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 8&#p216888
Mike
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: The causes for wisdom
Hmm, you really need to read the threads, because it is more nuanced than that, and the argument revolves around what control is possible over the conditions that lead to right effort, etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p218121
Mike
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p218121
Mike
Re: The causes for wisdom
mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, you really need to read the threads,
~~~
whatever that is now...
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: The causes for wisdom
I couldn't understand the meaning, could you explain?Mkoll wrote:mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, you really need to read the threads,
~~~
.
Re: The causes for wisdom
It was a rather vague joke having to do with feigned and exaggerated indignation that only I probably got because I made it up. I'll explain anyway.robertk wrote:I couldn't understand the meaning, could you explain?
= surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"
= my butting out: "im outta here"
= my waving goodbye: "laterz"
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Re: The causes for wisdom
I don't see any need to be indignant. I think it's an interesting discussion that addresses the important question of to what extent we actually have control over conditions from various points of view. While I have some disagreements with the Sujin model that Robert favours, if you look at the links I gave above, especially my partial transcription of a talk by Ajahn Amaro, you'll see that other teachers do discuss problems with tackling bhavana with wrong view.Mkoll wrote:surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"
Mike
- tiltbillings
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Re: The causes for wisdom
Actually, just read the first 20 pages of this, which is not too much, and likely you will be jawdropping and omg-ing with actual indignation. After that just jump in anywhere and read a bit here and there andMkoll wrote: = surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The causes for wisdom
Lol. It was a joke, or rather an attempt at one:mikenz66 wrote:I don't see any need to be indignant.
Remind me not to try that brand of humor again.Mkoll wrote:feigned and exaggerated indignation
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.Mkoll wrote:Lol. It was a joke, or rather an attempt at one:mikenz66 wrote:I don't see any need to be indignant.
Remind me not to try that brand of humor again.Mkoll wrote:feigned and exaggerated indignation
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The causes for wisdom
I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.
I'll refrain from commenting.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: The causes for wisdom
But you should comment.Mkoll wrote:I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.
I'll refrain from commenting.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: The causes for wisdom
I thought page 26 was useful.
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]