The causes for wisdom

An open and inclusive investigation into Buddhism and spiritual cultivation

Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:06 am

robertk wrote:http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=21622&p=307697#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness
Certainly the thread you linked points to some serious problematics around the notion of mindfulness, but as we see in this thread you initiated the Sujin-notions of mindfulness, which you extol, also exemplify their own serious problematics in what is meant by mindfulness.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:20 am

tiltbillings wrote:
robertk wrote:http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=21622&p=307697#p307697
Has some posts about what can be mistaken for mindfulness
Certainly the thread you linked points to some serious problematics around the notion of mindfulness, but as we see in this thread you initiated the Sujin-notions of mindfulness, which you extol, also exemplify their own serious problematics in what is meant by mindfulness.

What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?

I don't really expect an answer to my first question, BTW, unless you can sum it up into a TLDR version.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:49 am

Mkoll wrote:What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?

A quick summary is that any kind of "trying" to develop mindfulness is deluded and counter productive.

Perhaps this thread spells it out more clearly:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 8&#p216888

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 24, 2014 7:59 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Mkoll wrote:What was this thread about, anyway? And what are "Sujin-notions of mindfulness"?

A quick summary is that any kind of "trying" to develop mindfulness is deluded and counter productive.

Perhaps this thread spells it out more clearly:
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 8&#p216888

:anjali:
Mike

No right effort needed, huh? Sounds like cherry picking the path, to put it nicely.
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:10 am

Hmm, you really need to read the threads, because it is more nuanced than that, and the argument revolves around what control is possible over the conditions that lead to right effort, etc.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 00#p218121

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Sun Aug 24, 2014 9:53 am

mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, you really need to read the threads,

:jawdrop:

:computerproblem:

:alien:

:hello:

~~~

:focus: whatever that is now...
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby robertk » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:54 am

Mkoll wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, you really need to read the threads,

:jawdrop:

:computerproblem:

:alien:

:hello:

~~~
.

I couldn't understand the meaning, could you explain?
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:47 am

robertk wrote:I couldn't understand the meaning, could you explain?


It was a rather vague joke having to do with feigned and exaggerated indignation that only I probably got because I made it up. I'll explain anyway.

:jawdrop: :computerproblem: = surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"

:alien: = my butting out: "im outta here"

:hello: = my waving goodbye: "laterz"
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:23 am

Mkoll wrote:surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"

I don't see any need to be indignant. I think it's an interesting discussion that addresses the important question of to what extent we actually have control over conditions from various points of view. While I have some disagreements with the Sujin model that Robert favours, if you look at the links I gave above, especially my partial transcription of a talk by Ajahn Amaro, you'll see that other teachers do discuss problems with tackling bhavana with wrong view.

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 27, 2014 12:11 pm

Mkoll wrote::jawdrop: :computerproblem: = surprised and indignant that mikenz66 would suggest that I read this gigantic thread: "omg no way"
Actually, just read the first 20 pages of this, which is not too much, and likely you will be jawdropping and omg-ing with actual indignation. After that just jump in anywhere and read a bit here and there and
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:11 pm

mikenz66 wrote:I don't see any need to be indignant.

Lol. It was a joke, or rather an attempt at one:

Mkoll wrote:feigned and exaggerated indignation


Remind me not to try that brand of humor again. :lol:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 27, 2014 8:15 pm

Mkoll wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:I don't see any need to be indignant.

Lol. It was a joke, or rather an attempt at one:

Mkoll wrote:feigned and exaggerated indignation


Remind me not to try that brand of humor again. :lol:
Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:37 pm

tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.

I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.

I'll refrain from commenting.

:sage:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:19 pm

Mkoll wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.

I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.

I'll refrain from commenting.

:sage:
But you should comment.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby daverupa » Wed Aug 27, 2014 10:31 pm

I thought page 26 was useful.
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby Mkoll » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:18 am

tiltbillings wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Certainly it was a joke, but seriously read the first 20 pages, if you have not already.

I just now skimmed the first 20 and I've seen enough.

I'll refrain from commenting.

:sage:
But you should comment.

I will say that now that I have a better idea of what a "Sujin-notions of mindfulness" is, as you mentioned at the beginning of the page, I know not to touch it with a yojana-long pole.

:lol:
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Aug 28, 2014 7:30 am

Mkoll wrote:I will say that now that I have a better idea of what a "Sujin-notions of mindfulness" is, as you mentioned at the beginning of the page, I know not to touch it with a yojana-long pole.
I certainly understand, but on the other hand such discussions can be of value in that it helps clarify one's own understanding, especially when faced with an unusual point of view. Again, without question I can understand not wanting to engage in such a discussion.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby ancientbuddhism » Thu Aug 28, 2014 9:50 pm

Matthew Kusota’s impressions of the Sujin cult may be of interest:

The Abhidhammic theory of Ajaan Sujin Boriharnwanaket
Fingers walk the darkness down
Mind is on the midnight
Gather up the gold you've found
You fool, it's only moonlight.
If you try to take it home
Your hands will turn to butter
You better leave this dream alone
Try to find another. – Townes Van Zandt ‘Lungs’

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby cooran » Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:33 pm

Hello ancientbuddhism, all,

There is no Sujin cult.

I attended a few of the regular study groups many years ago in Thailand. Her teachings and discussions are based on the the accepted Teachings of the Buddha in the Tipitaka and align with explanations by buddhist scholars.
There was no pressure or problem when I didn't hold the exactly same opinions as other members of the meeting.

I also met our Ven. Dhammanando and Bhikkhu Bodhi on separate occasions via this group.

With metta,
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
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Re: The causes for wisdom

Postby tiltbillings » Thu Aug 28, 2014 11:30 pm

cooran wrote:I attended a few of the regular study groups many years ago in Thailand. Her teachings and discussions are based on the the accepted Teachings of the Buddha in the Tipitaka and align with explanations by buddhist scholars.
That is, obviously, highly debatable.

There is no Sujin cult.
While I would not use the word cult in its pejorative sense, I certainly would use the word sectarian, in that she holds -- or certainly implies -- that she has the correct interpretation of the Dhamma and that those who try to practice meditation are acting, according to her distorted understanding of meditation practice, on lobha. And as we have seen in this thread there is a significant problem with her straw-man characterization of meditation practice that has been shown to fly in the face of what the suttas and the commentaries have to say. While there may be some virtue to Sujin practice, her teachings are, over all, highly idiosyncratic interpretations that are on the far margins.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.

"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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