The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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retrofuturist
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Re: What's up with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

Yes, it should be simple enough, and indeed it is.

So, If you insist....

1. This does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka...
The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow:

1. Bhavanga - (basic consciousness)
2. Bhavangacalana - (vibration)
3. Bhavangupaccheda - (cut off)
4. Pancadvaravajjana - (5 doors senses –eye, ear, nose etc)
5. Pancavinnana - (5 consciousness)
6. Sampaticchana - (accepting the object)
7. Santirana - (investigation)
8. Votthapana - (determination)
9. Javana - (experience – 7 types)
10. “
11. “
12. “
13. “
14. “
15. “
16. Tadarammana - (registration)
17. Tadarammana - (confirmation)
2. The Heart Base in the analysis of material element does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka.

3. The concept of Rebirth Linking Consciousness does not exist in the Sutta Pitaka.

Would you like me to investigate further and provide more examples, and by doing so unneccesarily make people question the validity and usefulness of the Abhidhamma Pitaka?

My intention was only to correct a factual error, not to deliver a treatise on the unique contributions of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Now that I have done that, I would rather stop. This perception you have that I am out to defame the Abhidhamma Pitaka is unfounded - personally I'm content to let it be and joyful that others allegedly benefit from it.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: What's up with Bhikkhu Bodhi

Post by appicchato »

retrofuturist wrote:...personally I'm content to let it be and joyful that others allegedly benefit from it.
:thumbsup:
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

I've not been on a Theravada Buddhist List (or Mahayana for that matter) before where part of the Tipitaka is set up by some of the mods in a thread to debate its authenticity. I find it quite shocking. But different horses for different courses, or different climates on different lists.

Retro ~ You give this quote without attribution. May we know (have a link) to where you got it from - is it from the Abhidhamma Pitaka itself or from a Commentary or from someone's post elsewhere?
The process of the 17 thought moments in a complete perception is as follow:

1. Bhavanga - (basic consciousness)
2. Bhavangacalana - (vibration)
3. Bhavangupaccheda - (cut off)
4. Pancadvaravajjana - (5 doors senses –eye, ear, nose etc)
5. Pancavinnana - (5 consciousness)
6. Sampaticchana - (accepting the object)
7. Santirana - (investigation)
8. Votthapana - (determination)
9. Javana - (experience – 7 types)
10. “
11. “
12. “
13. “
14. “
15. “
16. Tadarammana - (registration)
17. Tadarammana - (confirmation)
metta

Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DNS »

Chris wrote: I've not been on a Theravada Buddhist List (or Mahayana for that matter) before where part of the Tipitaka is set up by some of the mods in a thread to debate its authenticity. I find it quite shocking. But different horses for different courses, or different climates on different lists.
Samditthiko: The Dhamma is testable by practice and known by direct experience,
Ehipassiko: The Dhamma welcomes all beings to put it to the test and to experience it for themselves.

(from the six qualities of the Dhamma, AN 11.12

I think the value of the Abhidhamma can withstand any scrutiny that may arise here. But as to the dating: why was the Abhidhamma not recited at the First Council? Why was it not recited at the Second Council? Why did it take all the way until the Third Council before it was recited?
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Jason »

Chris wrote:I've not been on a Theravada Buddhist List (or Mahayana for that matter) before where part of the Tipitaka is set up by some of the mods in a thread to debate its authenticity. I find it quite shocking.
:o Oh no! Critical thinking on a Buddhist discussion board? We can't have that now, can we? :ban:
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

I can't recall the exact source of that listing but I remember it being taught in Narada's "A Manual of Abhidhamma" text which later went on to form Bhikkhu Bodhi's "comprehensive" one.

Sorry the names of either escape me right now, but I've got a bus to catch soon!

In fact, I'll take it on the train today and try to find it for you...

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: I can't recall the exact source of that listing but I remember it being taught in Narada's "A Manual of Abhidhamma" text which later went on to form Bhikkhu Bodhi's "comprehensive" one.

Sorry the names of either escape me right now, but I've got a bus to catch soon!

In fact, I'll take it on the train today and try to find it for you...
Hi Paul, Chris,

It is in the Abhidhamma, Dhammasangani book. But I don't have my copy with me right now for the exact quote. It is from the 17 parts of a cognition.
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Ben »

Hi Paul, David & Chris
The electronic copy of Narada's work should be on the BPS website onlinre library.
If you have trouble locating it - please let me know as i have a version I was proof-reading some months ago and I am happy to email to you.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

I assume you have Bhikkhu Bodhi's "A Compherensive Manual Of Abhidhamma"? If so, it's on page 155 and surrounding pages.

In skimming through it, I found more teachings that are not found in the Sutta Pitaka. Whether you wish me to provide details, page references and such, I will leave at your discretion, should such enquiry be deemed beneficial.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by cooran »

hanks Retro. Yes I do have the text - a commentary from only 800 or 900 years ago ~ not part of the Abhidhamma Pitaka.
I think I'll save any further discussion until Ven. Dhammanando returns. He is returning to this list, isn't he?

metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by Ben »

Yes, as far as I am aware.
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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retrofuturist
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

Well, as David said, the "17 mind moments" analysis is in the Dhammasangani... the first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. If you have a copy, you may wish to investigate it.

As you doubtlessly know, the Abhidhammattha Sanghaha translates as "the Compendium of Things contained in the Abhidhamma" (p15). Given your reluctance to accept it as a reference indicative of the teachings of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, do you therefore question that the prominent Abhidhammattha Sanghaha is actually a "compendium of things contained in the Abhidhamma" after all?

If you do, then I can go no further in this discussion because I do not possess copies of any of the books from the Abhidhamma Pitaka.

When Mahayanists composed their doctrines well after the Buddha's parinibbana and considered them to be valuable to mankind, they devised intra-traditional methods of justification for treating their doctrines as the literal word of Buddha. We do not accept their traditional explanations... it is useful to reflect on the reasons that we do not personally accept this self-proclaimed authority, and to ask ourselves if we are applying the same level of critical thought and investigation into the traditional explanations behind Theravada doctrines composed after the Buddha's parinibbana that the authors may have considered a valuable blessing to mankind?

To anyone not relying solely on the intra-tradition justifications, the following facts pose severe risks to the authenticity of the Abhidhamma Pitaka as having been genuinely spoken by the Buddha.

* The non existence of the Theravada Abhidhamma in any tradition outside of Theravada itself. Compare with the Sutta Pitaka and Vinaya Pitaka, which exist (or are at least know to have existed, in varying degrees of completeness) in many languages, across many parts of Asia.

* Other early schools alleging that scholar monks of the Theravada tradition were the authors of the Abhidhamma Pitaka

* The absence of reference to the Abhidhamma Pitaka prior to the 3rd Buddhist Council, 294 years after the Buddha's parinibbana

Even lovers of the Abhidhamma such as venerables Bodhi and Nyanatiloka, who have written instructive texts on the Abhidhamma, when faced with this evidence can not bring themselves to accept the traditional explanation for the origins of the Abhidhamma Pitaka. Like these venerables, I do not claim that the Abhidhamma has no value, but my preference in the Dhamma is to follow the words of the Buddha when he spoke as such in the Simsapa Sutta...

SN 56.31 - Simsapa Sutta
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.
So even if the Abhidhamma is a completely faithful systematization of the Buddha's teachings, with not a single new thing added, the Buddha himself says that it is unneccessary in the holy life (let alone the lay life).

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DNS »

retrofuturist wrote: * The absence of reference to the Abhidhamma Pitaka prior to the 3rd Buddhist Council, 294 years after the Buddha's parinibbana
In the same way, monks, those things that I have known with direct knowledge but have not taught are far more numerous [than what I have taught]. And why haven't I taught them? Because they are not connected with the goal, do not relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and do not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. That is why I have not taught them.
And there are no 'secret' teachings in Buddhism. The Buddha was clear about this, so it is not as if some teachings were to be 'saved' for a later time.

"The idea that the Dhamma should be restricted to or monopolized by an ‘in-group’ was repugnant to the Buddha. He perceived the truths he taught as being understandable to all, relevant to all and applicable to all. On one occasion he said, ‘Three things shine openly, not in secret. What three? The orb of the moon, the orb of the sun and the Dhamma and discipline taught by the Tathàgata’ (A.I,283). He reiterated this same point just before his final passing when he said; ‘I have proclaimed the Dhamma without any idea of a hidden and open teaching. I do not have the closed fist of the teacher who holds anything back’ (D.II,100)."
(Ven. Dhammika, Buddhism A to Z, 2007)
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

Parts of the Abhidhamma were recited at the earlier Buddhist Councils, and, at the Third Council it became fixed into its present form when the Katthavatthu was added.
Guide Through the Abdhidhamma Pitaka, by Nyanatiloka Mahathera (Kandy: Buddhist Publication Society, 1983), p xi.

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
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Re: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate

Post by DNS »

Apparently that is the view of a few monks and scholars, but they do not show any evidence of the Abhidhamma being discussed at the first two Councils.

Here is the report from Wikipedia, which is equally inconclusive and full of circular referencing, for example, quoting Encyclopedia Britannica. :P
Origins

Tradition[3] says that the Buddha thought the Abhidhamma out immediately after his enlightenment, but only taught it some years later, to the gods. He then repeated it to Sariputta, who handed it on to his disciples. This tradition is also evident in the Parivara, a very late addition to the Vinaya Pitaka[4], which mentions in a concluding verse of praise to the Buddha that this best of creatures, the lion, taught the three pitakas.[5].

Scholars however generally date the Abhidhamma works to around the third century BCE, 100 to 200 years after the death of the Buddha. Therefore the seven Abhidhamma works are generally claimed by scholars not to represent the words of the Buddha himself, but those of disciples and great scholars[6]. Dr Rupert Gethin however said that important elements of abhidhamma methodology probably go back to the Buddha's lifetime[7]. A. K. Warder and Dr Peter Harvey both suggested early dates for the matikas on which most of the Abidhamma books are based. Abhidhamma started out as elaboration of the suttas,[dubious – discuss] but later developed independent doctrines[8] .

As the last major division of the canon, the Abhidhamma Pitaka has had a checkered history. It was not accepted as canonical by the Mahasanghika school[dubious – discuss][1][9] and several other schools[dubious – discuss][10]. Another school included most of the Khuddaka Nikaya within the Abhidhamma Pitaka[1]. Also, the Pali version of the Abhidhamma is a strictly Theravada collection, and has little in common with the Abhidhamma works recognized by other Buddhist schools[11]. The various Abhidhamma philosophies of the various early schools have no agreement on doctrine[12] and belong to the period of 'Divided Buddhism'[12] (as opposed to Undivided Buddhism). The earliest texts of the Pali Canon have no mention of (the texts of) the Abhidhamma Pitaka[13]. The Abhidhamma is also not mentioned in some reports of the First Buddhist Council, which do mention the existence of the texts of the Vinaya and either the five Nikayas[14] or the four Agamas[15]. Other accounts do include the Abhidhamma.[16]

In the Theravadin Abhidhamma Pitaka, unlike the Abhidharma Pitaka of the Sarvastivada school, ontological theorizing is absent, and the question of ontological status of dharmas remains a moot point. The notion of sabhava (Sanskrit: svabhava) is only utilized in late Theravadin texts.[17] The doctrine of momentariness is also a late addition to Theravada thought.[18] It only appears at the time of Buddhaghosa.[19]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidhamma" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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