Goenka on elimination of sankharas

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suttametta
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by suttametta »

SamKR wrote:Suttas on feelings:
Sukha Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Santaka Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Akasa Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Samadhi Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Datthabba Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Gelañña Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Agara Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
Bhikkhu Sutta: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Now to support
"old stocks of past sankharas are brought to the surface as vedana (sensations). By observing them with perfect equanimity [without ignorance and craving], these sankharas then evaporate [cessation of sankhara]. In this way we eliminate past sankharas, and consequently avoid the bad experience of our past bad kamma [avoid new dukkha]...":
we can read any sutta on dependent origination.

I ask: how is it not supported by the suttas?
No mention of sankhara in any of this.
SamKR
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by SamKR »

suttametta wrote:
No mention of sankhara in any of this.
Please see one of the many dependent origination suttas, for example: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications [sankhara]. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
SamKR
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by SamKR »

suttametta wrote:
SamKR wrote: Do you expect that suttas should outline every specific detail for meditation instruction?
Yes. I know they do. They leave out no detail. The body sankhara is not a bunch of feelings. It is the urge to move.
That's your understanding. My understanding is different. :) Who said body sankhara is a bunch of feelings?

It is sankhara that gives rise to feeling and vice versa. See dependent origination (sankhara paccaya vinnana paccaya nama-rupa).
Last edited by SamKR on Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:41 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Ben
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by Ben »

["suttametta"]
Ben wrote:
suttametta wrote:
pilgrim wrote:If I have understood correctly Goenka teaches that during the body sweeping process, old stocks of past sankharas are brought to the surface as vedana (sensations). By observing them with perfect equanimity, these sankharas then evaporate. In this way we eliminate past sankharas, and consequently avoid the bad experience of our past bad kamma ripening. Is this teaching supported by the suttas?
no.
Actually, it is.
Pls, reference.

-----

Certainly, as soon as you begin supporting your own unsupported opinions.
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pilgrim
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by pilgrim »

Suttametta and SamKR. I think you both are discussing the prevention of arising of sankharas thorugh the reduction of Avijja. I'm not interested in that as it is clear enough that with the reduction of Avijja, there is less craving and aversion and hence sankharas will not be as deep as before.

I'm interested in the idea of past sankharas being eliminated through mindfulness. Ben, I'd appreciate if you could point me to the appropriate suttas.
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by SamKR »

pilgrim wrote:Suttametta and SamKR. I think you both are discussing the prevention of arising of sankharas thorugh the reduction of Avijja. I'm not interested in that as it is clear enough that with the reduction of Avijja, there is less craving and aversion and hence sankharas will not be as deep as before.

I'm interested in the idea of past sankharas being eliminated through mindfulness. Ben, I'd appreciate if you could point me to the appropriate suttas.
Here we have very different understandings. Do you think mindfulness is not directly connected to reduction of both avijja and sankhara? What is the purpose of mindfulness and sampajanna if not reducing avijja and sankhara? They are all related and dependent on each other.

Actually during mindfulness what happens is: due to sampajanna (ie, due to no avijja) new sankharas are not created, while "old" sankharas are decayed during equanimous observation (ie, due to no craving). Thus both process must happen together: new are not created (no avijja --> no sankhara), and old is used up during arising of consciousness and feeling (sankhara --> vinnana --> vedana) - and thus leading to elimination of sankhara gradually.

And, for this no other sutta is needed as a support except suttas on dependent origination and Mahasatipatthana sutta.
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pilgrim
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by pilgrim »

SamKR wrote:Thus both process must happen together: new are not created (no avijja --> no sankhara), and old is used up during arising of consciousness and feeling (sankhara --> vinnana --> vedana) - and thus leading to elimination of sankhara gradually.

And, for this no other sutta is needed as a support except suttas on dependent origination and Mahasatipatthana sutta.
Could you give me the exact quote where old sankharas is extinguished through pls? My understanding of the Paticca samuppada does not support this. With destruction of avijja, no new sankharas are created. But where does it say old sankharas are eliminated? Note that Moggalana and Angulimala continued to suffer the effects of past kamma even after they were arahants and had destroyed Avijja. So I'm interested to read up on an explicit teaching that past sankharas can be eliminated in this way.
SamKR
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by SamKR »

pilgrim wrote: Could you give me the exact quote where old sankharas is extinguished through pls? My understanding of the Paticca samuppada does not support this.
My understanding of Paticcasamuppada supports this. In suttas on dependent origination the buddha says:
from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications.
Cessation means non-rearising. It is elimination of re-generation.
pilgrim wrote: With destruction of avijja, no new sankharas are created. But where does it say old sankharas are eliminated? Note that Moggalana and Angulimala continued to suffer the effects of past kamma even after they were arahants and had destroyed Avijja. So I'm interested to read up on an explicit teaching that past sankharas can be eliminated in this way.
Oh ok, I now see what you are trying to say. Old sankharas are eliminated only by being "used up". And I think Goenkaji does not say old sankharas are eliminated (or destoryed) without being used up (that is without sankhara --> vinnana). When Goenkaji says destruction of old sankhara he means non-regeneration of new sankharas becasue of old sankharas - that is destroying the whirlpool. Please see my previous post about using up of old sankhara and non-generation of new sankhara during mindfulness. However, with development in the Dhamma and meditation the effect of same sankhara could be much lesser. What I believe from reading suttas is that Arahants do fully eliminate generation of new sankhara, however there may still be little past kamma to be used up until they leave the body.
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by Mkoll »

SamKR wrote:Actually during mindfulness what happens is: due to sampajanna (ie, due to no avijja) new sankharas are not created, while "old" sankharas are decayed during equanimous observation (ie, due to no craving).
I'm curious as to where you get the idea that with sampajanna there is no avijja.
When one is touched by a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one.

-MN 148
So only if one truly understands that (i.e. they're an arahant), there is no ignorance within one. Otherwise, there is ignorance and thus sankharas and all the rest. Sampajanna is not that according to its own definition.
SamKR wrote:And I think Goenkaji does not say old sankharas are eliminated (or destoryed) without being used up

From the first post in this thread and what I've emphasized from it below, that sounds to me like what he's saying. But I'd need an actual quote from the man himself about this subject to say anything better.
pilgrim wrote:By observing them with perfect equanimity, these sankharas then evaporate. In this way we eliminate past sankharas, and consequently avoid the bad experience of our past bad kamma ripening.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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pilgrim
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by pilgrim »

From the discourse summaries:

"Any moment in which one does not generate a new sankhara one of the old ones will arise on the surface of the mind, and along with it a sensation will start within the body. If one remains equanimous, it passes away and another old reaction arises in Its place. One continues to remain equanimous to physical sensations and the old sankhara continue to arise and pass away, one after another. If out of ignorance one reacts to sensations, then one multiplies the sankhara multiplies one's misery. But if one develops wisdom and does not react to sensations, then one after another the sankhara are eradicated, misery is eradicated.
The entire path is a way to come out of misery. By practicing, you will find that you stop tying new knots, and that the old ones are automatically untied. Gradually you will progress towards a stage in which all sankhara leading to new birth, and therefore to new suffering, have been eradicated: the stage of total liberation, full enlightenment."
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by gavesako »

It is true that in some cases, it is enough to observe the sensations with dispassion and equanimity, which will lead the mind to freedom from attachment. But the forest Ajahns often point out that more than that is needed, for example that one really has to take up the body contemplation (32 parts, asubha, 4 elements) as a way of developing insight, otherwise one will not progress further:
A level of knowledge called "knowing and seeing things as they actually are (yatha-bhuta-ñana-dassana)," where things are understood in terms of a fivefold perspective: their arising, their passing away, their drawbacks, their allure, and the escape from them — the escape, here, lying in dispassion. Some commentators have suggested that, in practice, this fivefold perspective can be gained simply by focusing on the arising and passing away of these aggregates in the present moment; if one's focus is relentless enough, it will lead naturally to a knowledge of drawbacks, allure, and escape, sufficient for total release. The texts, however, don't support this reading, and practical experience would seem to back them up. As MN 101 points out, individual meditators will discover that, in some cases, they can develop dispassion for a particular cause of stress simply by watching it with equanimity; but in other cases, they will need to make a conscious exertion to develop the dispassion that will provide an escape. The discourse is vague — perhaps deliberately so — as to which approach will work where. This is something each meditator must test for him or herself in practice.

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SarathW
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by SarathW »

Please listen to the attached video. First 20 minutes from U Ba Khin confirming the OP question.
Then next 45 minutes by Goenka some questions and answers. Very interesting.
Goenka hit the nail in the last 10 minutes of the video by clearing all the doubts about the matter brought up in this OP.
I will let you find out it.

:stirthepot:



Sayagyi U Ba Khin "the essentials of buddha dhamma in meditative practice" .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=msXjXiAOuWE
:)
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by Babadhari »

pilgrim wrote:
SamKR wrote:Thus both process must happen together: new are not created (no avijja --> no sankhara), and old is used up during arising of consciousness and feeling (sankhara --> vinnana --> vedana) - and thus leading to elimination of sankhara gradually.

And, for this no other sutta is needed as a support except suttas on dependent origination and Mahasatipatthana sutta.
Could you give me the exact quote where old sankharas is extinguished through pls? My understanding of the Paticca samuppada does not support this. With destruction of avijja, no new sankharas are created. But where does it say old sankharas are eliminated? Note that Moggalana and Angulimala continued to suffer the effects of past kamma even after they were arahants and had destroyed Avijja. So I'm interested to read up on an explicit teaching that past sankharas can be eliminated in this way.

Brahmajala Sutta
Bhikkhus! Since the Tathagata rightly knows the arising of feeling (vedana) and
its cause, the cessation of feeling and its cause, its pleasantness, its faults, and
freedom from attachment to it, he becomes liberated without any clinging, (i. e..
he realizes Nibbana
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
SamKR
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by SamKR »

Mkoll wrote:
When one is touched by a neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling, if one understands as it actually is the origination, the disappearance, the gratification, the danger, and the escape in regard to that feeling, then the underlying tendency to ignorance does not lie within one.

-MN 148
So only if one truly understands that (i.e. they're an arahant), there is no ignorance within one. Otherwise, there is ignorance and thus sankharas and all the rest. Sampajanna is not that according to its own definition.
I don't disagree. But our understanding of Sampajanna could be different. What I actually meant for the practicing medidators is lesser avijja.
Mkoll wrote:
SamKR wrote:And I think Goenkaji does not say old sankharas are eliminated (or destoryed) without being used up

From the first post in this thread and what I've emphasized from it below, that sounds to me like what he's saying. But I'd need an actual quote from the man himself about this subject to say anything better.
pilgrim wrote:By observing them with perfect equanimity, these sankharas then evaporate. In this way we eliminate past sankharas, and consequently avoid the bad experience of our past bad kamma ripening.
I initially said yes to the OP's question because I did not understand the real question pilgrim was asking. The question could be interpreted in two senses. If understood in the sense what pilgrim meant, then my answer would be no to the question of OP.
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Re: Goenka on elimination of sankharas

Post by Babadhari »

as 'sankhara rise to the surface' the meditator should remain equanimous, neither reacting with desire or aversion as the sensation is felt, on the understanding that the sensation is impermanent, anicca,

the Noble Eightfold Path must be followed for this process to work according to both Goenka and his instructor who whas U Ba Khin.

the rising of sankhara can not be isolated in itself from the rest of the teaching.

i do not practice this technique any longer because of deficiencies in my Sila, but it is a good technique for understanding impermanence
Aflame with the fire of passion, the fire of aversion, the fire of delusion.
Aflame, with birth, aging & death, with sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs ......

Seeing thus, the disciple of the Noble One grows disenchanted. SN 35.28
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