The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Macavity wrote:
clw_uk wrote:No argument answers the question without violating the riddle
In fact there are lots of proposed solutions that don't "violate the riddle." Like I said, you don't seem to have done much research on how real, live, flesh-and-blood theists have in fact approached the problem. Here's a place to start...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodicy

But if you just want to smugly stick with your Richard Dawkins cartoon version of theism, then don't bother clicking.


Oh please the problem of evil has never been resolved and the above riddle is one in a number of perfectly reasonable questions to ask


The Book of Isaiah clearly claims that Yahweh is the source of at least some natural disasters:

“ ...I bring prosperity and create disaster: I, Yahweh, do all these things

So God drowns babies, not really soliving the problem of evil here

The book of Job is offered however this doesnt help either. God is so petty that he must have a bet with the devil to know if Job will remain faithful so he allows immense amount of suffering on Jobs family just to test him, he kills children just to test Job. Apart from the obvious fact that God should know that Job would remain faithful (otherwise he isnt an all knowing God) we can see that once again "God" comes across as childish and immoral

The Book of Job offers two different answers: suffering is a test, and you will be rewarded later for passing it;
Whats the point if God already knows everything he knows if you pass it or not
another that God in his might chooses not to reveal his reasons
"God moves in mysterious ways" which is a copout and doesnt answer the problem of evil



Proposed solutions

Free will


God's creation of persons with morally significant free will is something of tremendous value. God could not eliminate evil and suffering without thereby eliminating the greater good of having created persons with free will and who can make moral choices
So he is unable to stop evil and is thus not all powerful (and i would say inept). Also God can do anything so he could give creation free will without evil

Natural evils such as earthquakes and many diseases are sometimes seen as problems for a free will argument since they seem to not be caused by free will decisions. Possible reasons for natural evils using a free will argument include that they are caused by the free will of supernatural beings such as demons
Obvious dark age superstition. Once again if God is so powerful and loving why let these "demons" run around causing trouble, unless he cant do anything ....

that they are caused by the original sin which in turn is caused by free will,
However there was no Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden there was Evolution. There was then no "original sin" to pass down through the ages. Once again though if there was original sin, why couldnt God just forgive? Or was he unwilling to?
Spiritual development
Evil is sometimes seen as a test or trial for humans. Irenaeus of Lyons and more recently John Hick have argued that evil and suffering are necessary for spiritual growth. This is often combined with the free will argument by arguing that such spiritual growth requires free will decisions. A problem with this is that many evils do not seem to promote this. Examples include painful deaths of very young, innocent children and animals. Others enjoy lives of ease and luxury where there is virtually nothing that challenges them to undergo moral growth

The problem of evil is often phrased why do bad things happen to good people?. Some religions therefore answer that good people simply do not exist. For example, some forms of Christianity teach that all people are inherently sinful due to the fall of man and the original sin; for example, Calvinist theology follows a doctrine called federal headship, which argues that the first man, Adam, was the legal representative of the entire human race. A counterargument to the basic version of this principle is that an omniscient God would have predicted this, when he created the world, and an omnipotent God could have prevented it.
Except there was no Adam and no Fall.........



You cannot put together and all powerful, all knowing, all loving ever present creator God and the problem of Evil. The only way to get around it is to subtract from the idea of God in some way such as in Dystheism



Now from Buddhism
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why does he order such misfortune
And not create concord?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance
And he such inequity and injustice create?
If the creator of the world entire
They call God, of every being be the Lord
Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta)
Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!
Which is actually in line with this


Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”


As i said earlier the problem of evil does away with notions of an all powerful, loving etc God. So it does away with the common view of a God held by most



Chris
Thanks for the helpful links, Mike and Macavity. It's easy to beat up on stereotypes, clw_uk. Harder to do some research and show respect for a wide variety of human beliefs and povs. For myself, the points Avery made the other day are important to keep in mind...
I do show respect, i dont go into churches telling them they are all wrong and i dont go around trying to trash others beliefs for the fun of it. However this is a Buddhist website where the notion of God (big G) is held to be an erroneous view. All the arguments i have put forward would have been accepted by Buddha, i dont have a doubt about that


1. Being respectful of people who are wrong in other ways, and thus resolving conflicts with them.
Showing that the emperor has no clothes on an appropriate forum isnt disrespect


In general there seems to be a strange defense of Theism/Deism going up here

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

Namaste,

[Moderator line edit] You seem to insist that I am saying that quantum physics proves Hinduism. That is not what I am saying. I do not even know if there is a God or if Sanatana dharma is truely the teaching that can reveal that truth. I am simply wanting a response that answers another concept other than the typical jewish, christian, and islamic concepts. But you cant do that, nor could you do that on the thread on the other forum. Why? Because you dont know their concept so you repeated the same mistakes.

Anyways thank you very much Mike. I enjoyed your response. And ben whenever you get time I would appreciate it. It is no worry.

I just want to make it clear to everyone I am confused but I still love buddhism and I am contemplating taking up the path. I just dont know right this minute.

-juan :guns:
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Hey


CLW_UK with all due respect I think you are acting out your egoic mind.
Rational thought doesnt mean clinging

You seem to insist that I am saying that quantum physics proves Hinduism
No you didnt say it proves hinduism but you suggested that quantum physics has something to do with Hinduism, all i said was we dont know enough about QP to make any judgements yet


That is not what I am saying. I do not even know if there is a God
There most likely isnt

if Sanatana dharma is truely the teaching that can reveal that truth.
Check out the Kalama Sutta


Why? Because you dont know their concept so you repeated the same mistakes
Then tell us what your/Hinduism conception of "God" is so we can answer you

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Namu Butsu
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:37 am

Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

Namaste,

CLW_UK i already did. I posted two links that explain the concept from experts. I wanted someone who could take the time to read them and realize the hindu view and then perhaps give me a buddhist response to this. I already read the refutations to christians, jews, and muslims. I am fine with that it does refute the hell out of what they believe in, but the hindu concept is missing. Look at my post again and check out the links.

with metta
-juan
:buddha2:
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Is it these links?


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resourc ... la-11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WH6KNeI7u2g" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

Namu Butsu wrote:Namaste,

CLW_UK i already did. I posted two links that explain the concept from experts. I wanted someone who could take the time to read them and realize the hindu view and then perhaps give me a buddhist response to this. I already read the refutations to christians, jews, and muslims. I am fine with that it does refute the hell out of what they believe in, but the hindu concept is missing. Look at my post again and check out the links.

with metta
-juan
:buddha2:
Would you be kind enough to outline what you see as the major (and minor) difference between the Jewish/Christian/Islamic God on one side and the Hindu Shavite god on the other, why criticism of one does not cover the other. If you are claiming they are different, it is up to you to delineate these differences as you understand them.If you make the claim, it is your responsibility to clarify what the claim is and how you understand it, which is what is required for a good, reasonable dialogue.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

Yes sir :buddha1: @ CLW_UK

TILT most certainly.

The Abrahamic concepts is there is a God individual being who "created" the universe and rules over from a throne in heaven (some Islamic concepts place God Above the 7 heavens on a throne that is over those heavens). The islamic deity isnt known in terms of anthropomorphically. Though the christian and jewish may be. But the Muslims still accept an Individual Deity somewhere out there that with magical powers produced the universe.

In Sanatana Dharma (Hinduism) in particular the Shaivite path God is Immanent and transcendent. God is dual and non dual, within us and outside of us. There is only one reality (monism). That means that all this around us the maya is illusion because the onlything that exist is God. We are part of that God we just dont realize it and thus is why we suffer. Siva is looked at as Absolute reality, Pure Consciousness, and Primal soul. From dancing with Siva the book it states that Siva is unmanifests, unchanging and transcendent, the Self God, Timeless, formless and spaceless. As pure consciousness, Siva is the manifest primal substance, pure love and light flowing through all form, existing everywhere in time and space as infinite intelligence and power. As Primal Soul, Siva is the five-fold manifestation: brahma, the creator; vishnu the preserver; Rudra the destroyer; Mahesvara the Veiling Lord, and Sadasiva the revealer.

Siva's unamnifest reality is something that must be realizd. It does not exist yet exist. It is basically Formelessness, unborn, indestructable, beyond time and space, without qualities, that we are apart of and is our nature.
Last edited by Namu Butsu on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Taken from this ling

http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resourc ... la-11.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a divine purpose even in the existence of suffering in the world.
Where is this divine purpose?

It is a natural part of human life and the impetus for much spiritual growth for the soul
Where is the soul? What does the soul do?

Monks, whatever contemplatives or priests who assume in various ways when assuming a self, all assume the five clinging-aggregates, or a certain one of them. SN III 46
Is soul feeling? perception? consciousness? mental volition? form?


"That which appears as cold or as hot, fresh or spoiled, good fortune and bad, love and hate, effort and laziness, the exalted and the depraved, the rich and the poor, the well-founded and the ill-founded, all this is God Himself; none other than Him can we know." Aum Namah Sivaya.
So a man is a murder because of God

Anguttara Nikaya 3.61: “Again, monks, I [the Buddha] approached those ascetic and brahmins and said to them: ‘Is it true, as they say, that you venerable ones teach and hold the view that whatever a person experiences…all that is caused by God’s creation?’ When they affirmed it, I said to them: ‘If that is so, venerable sirs, then it is due to God’s creation that people kill, steal ...[and otherwise act badly]. But those who have recourse to God’s creation as the decisive factor will lack the impulse and the effort doing this or not doing that. Since for them, really and truly, no (motive) obtains that this or that ought to be done or not be done….”’
Sin is the intentional transgression of divine law. There is no inherent or "original" sin. Neither is there mortal sin by which the soul is forever lost. Through sadhana, worship and austerities, sins can be atoned for. Aum.

There is no "divine law" in Buddhism, unwholesome kamma is from intentional action motivated by greed hatred or delusion. There is no "attonement from sin" via prayer and worship either
"Suppose a man were to throw a large boulder into a deep lake of water, and a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] 'Rise up, O boulder! Come floating up, O boulder! Come float to the shore, O boulder!' What do you think: would that boulder — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — rise up, come floating up, or come float to the shore?"

"No, lord."

"So it is with any man who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Even though a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart — [saying,] 'May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!' — still, at the break-up of the body, after death, he would reappear in destitution, a bad destination, the lower realms, hell.

SLOKA 53

There is no eternal hell, nor is there a Satan. However, there are hellish states of mind and woeful births for those who think and act wrongfully--temporary tormenting conditions that lift the fiery forces within. Aum.
This is in line with buddhism

The superconscious mind, the mind of our soul, knows and inspires good conduct, out of which comes a refined, sustainable culture.
Soul? Super consciousness?
Wrongdoing and vice lead us away from God, deep into the darkness of doubt, despair and self-condemnation
In Buddhism there is no moving towards God there is practicing for the cessation of Dukkha

SLOKA 55

God is perfect goodness, love and truth. He is not wrathful or vengeful. He does not condemn or punish wrongdoers. Jealousy, vengefulness and vanity are qualities of man's instinctive nature, not of God. Aum Namah Sivaya.
If he is perfect goodness why does he allow hurt?



Generally speaking God in Buddhism is not found because of the problem of evil and also because it puts forward some kind of permanent, everlasting entity/being/principle


I dont really see much difference between the problems of Abrahamic Theism and Hindu Theism/Deism

metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Namu Butsu
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

I modified post 11
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

There is a good debate here about God or no God that i thought was relevant to the discussion





Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Namu Butsu
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:37 am

Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

I dont think i will learn anything. I am not concerned about evil and good but about the concept of God in Hinduism and the view of buddhism. I am seeking a refutation SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE HINDU THEOLOGY.. I do not think ill find it here but thats okay ill search elsewhere

with metta
-juan
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Namu Butsu wrote:I dont think i will learn anything. I am not concerned about evil and good but about the concept of God in Hinduism and the view of buddhism. I am seeking a refutation SPECIFICALLY AGAINST THE HINDU THEOLOGY.. I do not think ill find it here but thats okay ill search elsewhere

with metta
-juan


Its a concept thats not needed, it promoted ideas of eternalism and doesnt equate with reality


I dont really have much else to say unless i repeat myself


If you feel your not getting enough information then expand on your point, tell us what your conception of God is
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Namu Butsu
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Jul 10, 2009 11:37 am

Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Namu Butsu »

I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.
"It was only when I went to China in 1954-55 that I actually studied Marxist ideology and learned the history of the Chinese revolution. Once I understood Marxism, my attitude changed completely. I was so attracted to Marxism, I even expressed my wish to become a Communist Party member."-Dalai Lama (Time Magazine 1999)
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (Meat eating and vegetarianism)
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by tiltbillings »

Namu Butsu wrote:I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.
Does Shiva change?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ceisiwr
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Re: The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Namu Butsu wrote:I just did yet again above. But nevermind im not getting answers. Thank you for your time.

Sorry i didnt see that post
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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