Can mind exist without matter?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Alex123
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Alex123 »

Is it possible that arupa means "not form" ? Maybe some sort of subtle unpercieve rupa is still there.

Also, how would arupa loka reconcile with all the teachings that namarupa is together, and with teaching of Dependent origination? What happened to rupa as link in DO in arupa loka?
Thus, Ananda, from name-and-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. From name-and-form as a requisite condition comes contact...

This is the extent to which there is birth, aging, death, passing away, and re-arising. This is the extent to which there are means of designation, expression, and delineation. This is the extent to which the sphere of discernment extends, the extent to which the cycle revolves for the manifesting (discernibility) of this world — i.e., name-and-form together with consciousness. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
And the whole arupa loka thing seems to be very far fetched. How to distinguish one "being" from another considering that there is no spatial location and that mental states are very similar? How can we know that these beings even exist?

Of course one can say "meditate and see for yourself". But how do we know that meditative experience is not some sort of misunderstanding? After all, a person who meditates and reaches arupajhana-s still has a body with which one meditates and percieves arupajhanas. So it is not like there is direct experience, there isn't direct experience of arupa lokas.

If one thinks that one has telepathic powers, then how can you distinguish your thoughts from thoughts of another being - especially if that being is formless?


As for "can mind exist without matter", I'll believe it when one can take too much alcohol, mind altering drugs, damage the brain - all without effect on consciousness and mental function.
SarathW
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks all:
- What is the Pali term for stations of consciousness and two spheres?
- What is the diffrence between stations of consciousness and two spheres?
- Can some one reply to the following OP as well:
- http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=16160
:)
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by santa100 »

From the Pali source ( http://suttacentral.net/dn15/pi ):
Stations of consciousness: Viññāṇaṭṭhiti. Ven Buddhadatta rendered as "stages of sentient beings" (Concise Pali-English Dictionary http://www.budsas.org/ebud/dict-pe/dictpe-24-v.htm )
Two spheres (Ven. Bodhi renders "two bases"): dve āyatana
Their difference was described in DN 15 ( http://suttacentral.net/dn15/en )
Regarding the other OP, the previous sentences in the same paragraph page 389 should explain it: "With regard to the difference between space and Nibbāna, it may briefly be said that space is not[it is nothing], but Nibbāna is[it is spaceless and timeless]." A numerical analogy: an apple in the basket represents the number 1 (1 apple). No apple in the basket represents the number 0 (0 apple). While "space" can be represented with 0 to indicate there is not (no apple), but "Nibbana" cannot because it is something other than 1 and 0. Also refer to the simile of the Turtle and the Fish pages 387-388 ( http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/buddh ... gsurw6.pdf )
Spiny Norman
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Alex123 wrote: And the whole arupa loka thing seems to be very far fetched.
Alex, we were discussing what the suttas seem to describe. And if you read the whole thread most of your points have already been discussed / addressed.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
SarathW
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by SarathW »

Thanks Santa

Neither perception nor non-perception is a realm.
Why, the base of neither perception nor non-perception not considered as a station of consciousness?
:thinking:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
santa100
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote: Neither perception nor non-perception is a realm.
Why, the base of neither perception nor non-perception not considered as a station of consciousness?
The 2 bases of non-percipient beings and neither perception nor non-perception are separated out from the 7 Stations for Consciousness because they either have no consciousness or extremely subtle consciousness as explained by the Comy from Ven Bodhi's "The Great Discourse on Causation":
The non-percipient beings, [because of]not having consciousness, are not included here(the 7 Stations for Consciousness)..The base of neither perception nor non-perception is included among the bases but not among the stations; for like perception, this consciousness is so subtle that it is called "neither consciousness nor non-conciousness
Spiny Norman
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

santa100 wrote:
Regarding the other OP, the previous sentences in the same paragraph page 389 should explain it: "With regard to the difference between space and Nibbāna, it may briefly be said that space is not[it is nothing], but Nibbāna is[it is spaceless and timeless]." A numerical analogy: an apple in the basket represents the number 1 (1 apple). No apple in the basket represents the number 0 (0 apple). While "space" can be represented with 0 to indicate there is not (no apple), but "Nibbana" cannot because it is something other than 1 and 0.
Thanks, I hadn't come across that before. If we're using a numerical approach and space = 0, would it be stretching the point to say that Nibbana = infinity?
Buddha save me from new-agers!
santa100
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by santa100 »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thanks, I hadn't come across that before. If we're using a numerical approach and space = 0, would it be stretching the point to say that Nibbana = infinity?

It might not be a good analogy for there's positive infinity and negative infinity. Beside, the infinities still sit on the same dimension as the x-axis of the number line, which represents "conditioned" phenomena. So maybe Samsara would be better represented by infinity, while Nibbana would be like the y-axis that runs vertical to the x-axis. Note that this is a very crude analogy since we know that y-axis itself is also conditioned (unlike Nibbana). But just for the sake of analogy, the y-axis belongs to a separate dimension other than the x-axis and thus might be a better example than the infinity..
Spiny Norman
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by Spiny Norman »

santa100 wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote: Thanks, I hadn't come across that before. If we're using a numerical approach and space = 0, would it be stretching the point to say that Nibbana = infinity?

It might not be a good analogy for there's positive infinity and negative infinity. Beside, the infinities still sit on the same dimension as the x-axis of the number line, which represents "conditioned" phenomena. So maybe Samsara would be better represented by infinity, while Nibbana would be like the y-axis that runs vertical to the x-axis. Note that this is a very crude analogy since we know that y-axis itself is also conditioned (unlike Nibbana). But just for the sake of analogy, the y-axis belongs to a separate dimension other than the x-axis and thus might be a better example than the infinity..
I see what you mean, though I think all the dimensions are relative and conditioned. I'll ponder it some more. ;)
Buddha save me from new-agers!
SarathW
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Re: Can mind exist without matter?

Post by SarathW »

The matter raised in OP is discussed here in Point of Controversy.


P220

Of Matter in Arupa-Sphere. Controverted, Point.—
That there is matter among the Immaterial.


From the Commentary.—Some (as, for instance, the Andhakas), judging by the Word—' Because of consciousness there comes mind and bodyn—imagined that, even in the Arupa-sphere of existence, there was a subtle, refined matter segregated from grosser matter.


http://lirs.ru/do/Points_of_Controversy_(Kathavatthu" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;),Aung,Davids,1915.pdf
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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